Primary school admissions - MNHQ needs your thoughts!

I agree steppingoneggs. the big issue for 16/4 is the first borns that can't get in a local school. The issue then is choice. Some of our CofEs are open to all and do take all - but if I was non Christian I am not sure I would want that either - they are still church schools. The 5 RC near us rarely take non RC unless exceptional circumstances. Lots of RC go to community schools or CofE.

I really want to agree with something tiggy said up thread.

On the education boards, the big issues around admissions (which is what the original question was) are to do with distance, living in black hole, siblings v. children who live close, faith schools etc.

I am not saying there isn't an issue over summerborns and flexibility, but if MNHQ are going to go on TV to talk about the problems, then it shouldn't all be about summerborns, this thread has gone off on a massive tangent.

Sorry that should have said sweetiepie we have 5 RC schools in our close area. All are full. In a 5 mile radius we probably have 10.
I assume that if you think this could not happen, then you don't live in a city. It is also likely that you don't experience the same spaces crisis. I can hand on heart state that we have this many RC schools in our area. There are several CofE. There is one private Muslim school.

agree with pp about rural schools.

When we lived in a village, every single school in every single village for a radius of about 10 miles is C of E.

In a local town (5 miles away) there were non C of E schools. They were all very over subscribed and you wouldn't have got into them applying from 5 miles away in the village.

So while we had lots of choice, most of the village schools would have places, you have no choice over faith, it is C of E or nothing.

The only people going on about 'bloody Catholics' (sic) on this thread, rather than faith admissions in general, are those defending Catholic admissions.

Archery. I have 5 Catholic schools within a mile and a half of me. They have a total of 9 forms entry between them. City suburb.

There are statistics that are easy to find on the demographics of congregations and religious schools - the Campaign for Fair Admissions has some, and others are easy to find on Google. I've posted some on MN before - and I'll dig them out later, I'm not able to at the moment.

And yes, regular Mass attendance (generally at a church linked to th school) and pre-6 month baptism are 'hoops' that favour the better-organised and better-off, whatever you pretend. And CofE schools, which make up the majority of faith schools, tend to admit more kids under the non-faith criteria (though many are faith siblings) than the Catholic schools, but have even more MC intakes than Catholic schools as they put the emphasis on attendance/participation rather than baptism. That said, check out the Oratory's criteria...

Except you still haven't answered the question of why a child of x faith should have far, far greater choice and provision than a child of y faith (or no faith).

I have had similar arguments, on similar principles, about different issues, before on mn. I find it incredibly disheartening how easily people are distracted from an overall lack of resources by being encouraged to point the finger horizontally, instead of vertically. It is depressing.

There could, and should, be more school places.

A lack of school places for any given child is not caused by the existence of faith schools. In fact historically the existence of any school at all is down to the work of religious people. Nowadays most of us look to the State rather than to the Church to educate our children. Are they failing? Yes, some children, in some places, obviously. Too many children. Whose fault is it? THOSE BLOODY CATHOLICS. Really? are you sure?

I find it terribly sad that people can be so easily made to squabble with such vitriol between themselves when they should be agitating for real change.

The posters saying they live in an area with 5 Catholic Schools, you would have to have the biggest Catholic numbers in the country, to support five schools and possibly three plus Churches (most Churches have one primary school "attached" to it) I find it very hard or believe they are all Catholic.

Whether you believe it or not, it happens to be true. Are you calling me a liar?

And your statements about not having to jump through hoops to get into Catholic schools are ridiculous, at least around here. If you have not baptised your child by 6 months you are already ineligable (which as another poster pointed out discriminates against non-English Catholics for whom early baptism isn't the norm). And I live is an area where there are historically a lot of Catholics, but still most people are not. And many of those people already have a faith so converting to Catholicism would be jumping through the biggest hoop imaginable. Unless you can state with confidence that you'd think that, eg, converting to Islam was no biggie in order to get your kids into a reasonably local school, then please stop suggesting such nonsensical "solutions".

SweetieXPie, if you want to pretend this isn't an issue, and think I and other posters are lying about it, then there's not much I can do. In my turn, I can see your defensiveness for what it is - an "I'm all right, Jack" attitude which doesn't give a damn about other people as long as your kids are provided for.

Jassy, would be interesting to see where the link is to these "statistics" about the majority of Catholics being white MC as I certainly have never walked into Church and asked to fill in a Form to confirm my race and class.
Unfortunately this is a sweeping stereotype bought about by angered parents that do not like the fact we have faith schools in this country.
I would reiterate Catholic and schools are not the same as CofE Schools so I cannot speak for the congregations at C of E Churches and Schools.
Again I feel I need to point out, you don't have to jump through hoops to get into a Catholic School, if you have had your child baptised and attend Mass regularly (and of course live in the catchment for the school) you will stand a goo chance if getting in.
The posters saying they live in an area with 5 Catholic Schools, you would have to have the biggest Catholic numbers in the country, to support five schools and possibly three plus Churches (most Churches have one primary school "attached" to it) I find it very hard or believe they are all Catholic.

Reading this thread has made me very grateful that we live in a rural area where the admissions criteria seem very reasonable and there is no significant pressure on places (yet!) Though it appears a lot of posters on here would still have an issue at easily being able to get a place in their catchment school in this area as from a quick look at the catchment area map all the schools except one within an 8 mile radius are c of e.

So while I think we are very lucky to have pretty much free choice between several good or outstanding schools, others would be up in arms at the faith aspect. We are members of our local congregation through faith and choice not due to any misplaced sharp elbows, so it's not a problem for me. In fact I am very pleased that our children will be able to express their faith in school. Though I realise this may be an unpopular view.

Also, our catchment school is jyst under 2 miles away but there is no safe walking route so we will be eligible for the free school bus. I don't plan to send ds on it immediately he starts reception but will be very grateful of it when I go back to work. So for me it's been a very straightforward process... so far! Will only be really happy once I get the offer letter in my hand though!

Notquites story is the reality for some. It happened near us to. We moved when we realised we were in a black hole. We had been planning to move to a bigger house anyway, but getting into a local school became a high priority. It wasn't about one school, it was about any that I could walk to. Siblings miles away were however of course fine.
Faith schools do reduce the options for everyone else. We had only one non faith option that we had a chance of getting into out of 3 schools 0.3 miles or less away. We wanted a mixed school and got a place for pfb at the time, but know lots that didn't and ended up miles away (at RI schools)

Oh and to all the people that state that the Catholic Churches and Schools are full of the White MC, ou obviously have never step foot in a church.

Sweetie, unfortunately the statistics disagree with you. Catholic congregations are more socially representative of their local areas than CofE ones (which skew very strongly to the MC) but are still not fully representative.

And once you start applying admissions criteria, you skew the intake further, to those who (a) know what the schools admissions criteria are years in advance, (b) tend to be settled in a local area and go to a particular church, particularly for CofE schools which are the majority of faith schools and (c) have lives that support regular church attendance. This skews the school church intake even more towards the MC.

That's why faith schools that practicing selection tend to be 'better'. They're creaming off students who would do better anyway.

talkingofmichaelangelo, nothing, but that's irrelevant. If it makes it more accurate I will rephrase:

"Why should my Catholic neighbour's children have more choice than mine? Why is that fair?"

There shouldn't be faith schools in the State system, that should be a private option. But maybe private schools should be subjected to more Ofsted scrutiny considering the state of some of the faith free achools that were in the news last year.

I'm quite happy with the sibling rule, I know some people who have fallen through the gaps and ended up with siblings at different schools and it's a nightmare.

I'm very happy to have a choice of schools, but I live in an area where all the primary schools are good/outstanding and there are enough places so our 'worst' option would still have been OK. So agree with the 'if there's slack in the system it's OK' comments.

WRT Scotland, I'm a Scot living in England and I don't think the Scottish system is better (and I am shocked that that is now my view giving I come from a family of teachers). To begin with they still don't guarantee nursery education for all three year olds (let alone disadvantaged two year olds) so kids are potentially starting school with far less preparation for formality. The set catchments denies parental choice and the attitudes of schools to parents seem to be much more 'put up and shut up' than in my experience in England (admittedly my kids are at an outstanding school), in particular to high achieving kids (there is far less differentiation than we've experienced). Delayed starting is always taken up by the most educated families resulting in massive differences in a class.

Changing the starting date I'm conflicted about. I have one winter baby and one summer baby, the summer child has struggled much more and taken longer to adjust to school but how much of that is DOB and how much personality is hard to say. Suffice to say DC3 was planned as an autumn baby but obviously not everyone is able to make that choice. And although my bright winter baby may well have been ready to start school a year early I'd never chose that option (my parents did for one of my siblings and they struggled with starting school at 4.5, even with the later start age in Scotland the youngest struggle).

Somebody put it well saying it's worse than a postcode lottery and actually an 'opinions' lottery as there seems to be no rhyme or reason or predictability in whether or not your parental right to enter Reception at CSA is honoured, even within some LEAs.

As others above, the summer born issue is THE one for me at the moment. The research/ statistics are utterly and terrifyingly compelling - summer born children do less well, academically, socially; more likely to be labelled SEN, more likely to be bullied. This is particularly heightened in a country like ours where an August birthday means you start school at literally just turned four, vs countries where you might be more like 6.

I could go on a out this all day, but suffice it to say it's a horrible postcode lottery atm. Some LEAs totally get it; parental choice, you feel your kid's not ready, fine - they can start school at 5 (CSA) and, no, not, as I've heard some say, 'a whole year older' than the rest of the class, but maybe only a day older than the Sept 1st born and a couple of weeks/ months older than many others. Other LEAs are flouting government advice, claiming 'evidence' (essentially of SEN) is needed when really the guidance states children should be able to start Reception at CSA; a year 'late' for reasons of their DOB alone. This fact really needs nailing down and enforcing by central government as the current system is incredibly unjust.

Talking I don't honestly know. I know nothing about Catholicism, I'm a lapsed CofE. I think the expectation to be involved in the services etc would have made me uncomfortable if it was very 'full on', but I have no way of knowing if my DS would have liked it. On the other hand, both academically and pastorally they would have been way more able to help him feel safe and to bring out his slightly eccentric abilities. I did visit it and liked it. It's clearly well funded and the HT was lovely and really wanted us to apply. But as with the other schools I knew I wasn't going to get a place.

NotQuiteSoOnEdge, that sounds awful. So sorry about your son. I think your situation sums up fantastically how pointless, divisive, and destructive the notion of "choice" is that is always being foisted. it is such a red herring, it is infuriating how that word is bandied as if it guarantees anything good.

Out of interest, if the RC school had taken your son - on the basis that the school was still primarily RC but was taking your son anyway - would that have been ok with you? Or would you have refused to send him there and would have wanted the RC school to become a non faith school and take your son?

Archery, what do you know, or think you know, about me or my children?

I live in a black spot. When I applied for my pfb I got hold of all the data I could and analysed it, ESP the distance to last child admitted. I live in a city, so lots of schools, but I was 'too far' from 12 schools, all at a similar distance.

I'm a little geeky, so I got an OS map and drew on it with compasses marking the distances from each school. 12 overlapping circles in a ring, and at the centre a 'hole' about 1/4 mile square in which was our road. I phoned admissions before I even filled out the form to ask what to do as it was clear we wouldn't get a place at any of the schools, so what exactly was the point of visiting any of them or putting any down? They said I had to fill in the form anyway or I'd be left without a place at all.

It wasn't exactly a surprise to me not to get any of them, but to get a place at a school further away who had been strong armed into having a FOURTH reception class, PAN120, when they realised just how bad the shortfall of places was. The school is 13th by distance from my house, and is a lovely school, but I hate having to drive the school run or lose 3 hours a day walking back and forth.

It's particularly galling that I have to drive past the front door of the closest school, about 200 metres away, which is also the best school in the city on results. Unfortunately I'm not a Catholic, so that school was closed to me. It's so popular that it couldn't even take all the category 1 applicants (out of 10 categories!/PAN30).

I have an early June pfb, with emotional difficulties, and who is now classed as unusually gifted by our Senco. He would have benefitted from a small, local, safe academic school. Instead he ended up in the largest primary in the city (heading to 840 on roll) and struggled to cope with reception in such a large, busy environment.

He ended up as a query ASD label, but his difficulties turned out to be the effects of stress.

I read stuff about parental 'choice'. I'm in a large city, you'd think there'd be lots of 'choice', or at least enough that I could find a school that actually suited my child.

I had no choice whatsoever.

So the problem in that example isn't the muslim schools, but the lack of places for my dcs

But the lack of places for my DC is directly linked to the faith school places. Why should your children have more choice then mine? Why is that fair?

I mean it basically comes down to: why do you object to faith schools?

• because you won't send your dcs to them? ok then the problem is that there are not enough suitable school places for your dcs, otherwise you would not even have noticed the existence of the faith schools

• because they won't let your dcs in? ok then the problem is that there are not enough suitable school places for your dcs, otherwise you would not even have noticed the existence of the faith schools

out of interest, do those objecting to faith schools on these grounds object to all other methods and forms of selection? not saying that you have to to be consistent, obviously it's a different case and you may well legitimately have a different opinion, but how do you feel about

• fee paying schools
• SN schools
• grammar schools
• single sex schools
• academies which select according to certain special aptitudes
• stage schools

?

We also made use of the option to make a placing request in Scotland and also deferred my DS's entry to P1 by a year. It was definitely the right thing for him given his health issues so we were very grateful to live in a country where the admissions system has some flexibility.