Primary school admissions - MNHQ needs your thoughts!

Having read the whole thread, the majority view is that state schools reduce options for others who are non Christian ( as there are only a tiny number of other faith schools). The view of this is mildly irritating to down right discrimination. The net result is that for example RC kids don't mix regularly with other faiths. I personally don't think dividing schools by religion and thus race is healthy at all in this day and age. School hours are about 25-30 week? Why are these not focused on teaching basics and then families can opt for faith classes outside school as in the US. The problem with this segregation is that school, play dates, parties and even sports clubs are often all based round school so the segregation is more than just school hours. Even extra curricular clubs like Cubs are divided near us - the RCs have their own ...

Also - what Annie said. (I used Sikh friends as an example as I'm sick of religious people saying to atheists 'well it wouldn't hurt you to go to church for two years', as if that's a reasonable solution to the issue.)

Tiggy - who else would buy land designated for educational purposes? I can see private schools, perhaps, if they thought they could get enough locals to pay - but that certainly wouldn't mop up all schools that discriminate on faith.

Dunno about Jassy, but I oppose Sikh state schools, too. I don't talk about them much, though, because there aren't enough of them (yet) to bugger up local provision for other kids.

tiggy I was just saying if the Catholic church shut their schools, there's no way around here the sites wouldn't be snapped up by the council.

OK - locally, there are no state funded Sikh schools, but a decent sized Sikh population. There are certainly no schools that prioritise the children of atheists.

Why do you think Catholics and Anglicans where I live are more deserving of priority in accessing a local education?

Jassy don't really get the point of your question, I don't think it matters more, there are Sikh schools that are state funded so am not really sure where you are going with this point.

I think the opposite would happen here - the next-door council has snapped up a really unsuitable commercial building for a free school, and there is some unseemly wrangling over the site of one school to give it to another school.

If the church flogged off school premises around here, I'd bet the council would buy them (even at enormous cost) and give them to a free school.

You are right ArcheryAnnie they wouldn't survive, the church would have no choice by to sell the land to the highest bidder (no doubt a developer) more properties would be built.

That would require a change of use for the land in the planning system. Would councils be likely to do this if it made it more difficult for them to fulfil their statutory obligation to provide school places?

Re the church-owned buildings, where did the church money originally come from?

Gosh, you keep referring people back to earlier in the thrwad, but here you go:

Why do your strong views on your child getting a Catholic education matter more than my Sikh friends' views on their children getting a Sikh education? Why should the state prioritise you over others?

Asking me what I'd do in a hypothetical situation is obviously hypothetical. I hope I'd do what I'm doing now - campaigning for a system that is fairer for all, and in particular for a system that is fairer to the least privileged children.

As I've said, I'm not trying to get my child into an 'outstanding' school. I'd like him to go to a local school so he can participate in his local community.

I could (just) afford to buy a flat close to a local school, live there for two years, then move out again so that my child and his gestating sibling could attend somewhere reasonably local. However, I'm not doing that as I think it's immoral and unfair - I would be contributing to the problem. I hope my principles would be upheld if I were of the 'right' faith; but I can't comment on the principles of the religious.

I think managed ballots are a pretty supportable admissions system.

You are right ArcheryAnnie they wouldn't survive, the church would have no choice by to sell the land to the highest bidder (no doubt a developer) more properties would be built. All of the children that would have attended that school would have no school to go to, you would have even more of a crisis on your hands!

The fact that it's not the most 'faithful' who necessarily benefit from religious discrimination surely makes it even more ridiculous that faith is used as a criteria at all?

Sure, there's no perfect and fair system for allocating places at oversubscribed schools. But to use faith-based discrimination - when it wouldn't be allowed in accessing any other public services - doesn't help.

The state just plugged any gaps in the existing church school provisions so that's what we were left with.

Yes, but the state could very easily establish fairer rules for admissions (rather than moves in the last decade or so that have increased inequality).

What is it that you asked Jassy?

Apologies to you Jassy, the initial conversation if data started as the were a lot of posts stating that all catholic schools were white MC and I was simply stating this was not true.
I agree faith schools do have fewer children on FSM, I also agree the parents can be very pushy in faith schools but hey I assume if you were Catholic and had the outstanding Catholic School in your catchment, you would send your child there, obviously correct me if I am wrong.

...no I didn't, SweetieXPie.

As I have said a million times, I don't want any state faith schools. I have never been a big fan of religious apartheid.

If the existing church state schools are so self-reliant, how about we remove all state finding from them, then? If the congregations really want them, I'm sure they will make sure that they survive.

Nope, Sweetie, that was me. And that's not the question I asked.

Ice Being you have taken what I have said completely out of context, AcheryAnnie asked me what she should tell her Sikh Friends if they wanted a state funded school which followed their faith and what I did is explain what Catholics did many years ago.
I think you need to think about what you are saying, you have accused me of being discriminational when I simply answered a question. I am very offended by what you have put on here.

Muskey, there might be a case for churches to control places based on the proportion of funding (capital plus running costs) they actually put in? Assuming they don't care about socioeconomic or racial segregation, of course.

this FOI from the Accord Coalition gives the true picture of funding for VA schools in recent years. The churches are no longer required to contribute to capital costs, and where capital contributions are made, there isn't evidence that it comes from the church rather than parental fundraising.

Muskey - paying money to your church/school is of course your choice, but it's really not going very far towards funding faith schools in general.

From www.secularism.org.uk/types-of-school.html

Voluntary Aided schools (VA)
A voluntary aided school is a state-funded school in which a religious foundation or trust owns the school buildings. All running costs and at least 90% of building costs are funded by central government via the local authority. The religious foundation contributes the remaining 10% of capital costs.
The governing body determines the school's admission arrangements in consultation with the local authority. VA schools can discriminate against all pupils on religious grounds if oversubscribed.
The governing body employs the staff and can apply a religious test in appointing, remunerating and promoting all teachers. It may also apply a religious test to non-teaching staff if a 'genuine occupational requirement' can be demonstrated. In addition, teachers can be disciplined or dismissed for conduct which is 'incompatible with the precepts of the school's religion.
Pupils at VA schools follow the National Curriculum. In religious education they are free to devise their own syllabus and only teach about their own religion.
VA schools are required to have a daily act of collective worship.

If the church school has voluntary aided status then they will contribute up to 10% of capital costs for renovations. They pay nothing towards current costs of running school. Or they can become an academy and control the school without paying a penny!

Wafting just as a matter of interest most faith schools are voluntary aided. Therefore I pay my taxes, I pay a sum to the school annually and because I attend church part of the money that I contribute also goes to the local catholic school. How much more would you like me to contribute