Primary school admissions - MNHQ needs your thoughts!

Another point in favour for DS's unpopular (but lovely) old primary school full of v low-income children: class size of 23.

Hmm, struggling to keep up with this thread (toddler not to keen on letting mummy 'check emails' mumsnet at the mo) but just seen the development about the summer born issue apparently never having been heard of it before, on mumsnet or elsewhere. Here's where I've heard of it and heard of it LOTS:

• Mumsnet. All the time! In AIBU (e.g. to think if my child/ teenager wouldn't be struggling if they weren't so young in the year); In Special Educational Needs (other problems being made much worse by being youngest in the year); Parenting (how to speed up toilet training, nap removal, self-dressing etc because summer born three year olds are nowhere near physically (let alone emtionally) ready for school in Sept. I'm sure the list goes on, they're just topics I tend to read. It IS an issue on Mumsnet - when I was pregnant with summer born DD it was mumsnet that first bought the issue to my attention and people's ongoing reporting of how their summer borns struggle constantly reinforces to me that I DO have cause for concern re when to send my DD.

• At the school gates/ in general society. I hear people talking (albeit often matter if factly, as if there is no other option) about such and such struggling because they're youngest in the year etc. It's obvious to all. There is definitely awareness of the big gap in terms of readiness and ability to 'keep up' (catch up really) thereafter.

• In the media! Every week it's somewhere recently: BBC News, Telegraph, Guardian, Times... Sky News and even the Daily Mail. It's not about ideology (I'm a massive lefty and have no desire to leave anybody behind) but the facts are stark; month of birth is a greater predictor of educational attainment than social class! That ain't subtle - it's a matter of great educational inequality. And yes middle class mummies may be at the for front of any campaigning but isn't that always the way with any social change? We can represent others too you know - are you claiming every middle class socialist leader was only really out for middle class gain?!

Much as I love mumsnet (and see above re it being here all the time too!) it is rather important to seek out other outlets of news... Find it incredible anybody even remotely up on current affairs could claim it's seen as a non-issue outside of a few crazies on this thread!

I think the campaign for parents of summer born children to be able to decide which year their child goes in to is very problematic. In fact, I think it misdiagnoses the problem and proposes a solution that would be worse than the current situation.

The deferral system is Scotland is very skewed to further advantage the already advantaged in society. The fact is, you're only going to choose deferral if you can afford another year of nursery fees (or of one parent not working) - and you need to understand the system enough to know that it will benefit your child and that you're eligible. It's an example of a policy that looks progressive on the surface but is, in fact, deeply regressive because it helps to entrench advantage at the expense of the most vulnerable.

The statistical difference in outcomes for the youngest children is only the issue because British education (and particularly English education) is obsessed with making everything academic at ever younger ages where developmental differences become a serious problem. I could absolute get behind a campaign to extend pre-school type education to later in life and to myth bust on the 'able children will get bored if they aren't taught the 3Rs 'stretched' at nursery. Giving children a right to years of play-based early childhood education (you can make this just like starting school so that people are not disadvantaged if they need the childcare aspects) and then getting on with the academic stuff at 6-7 would be much better. There's plenty of evidence that children learn more effectively when you do this anyway.

Instead we get a very nimby-ish campaign that would increase the developmental ranges in reception classes, with the poorest and most vulnerable children at the greatest disadvantage.

I don't know if there's already som. space for later diagnosis under priority late admissions to cover SN?
Although it doesn't help if diagnosis is usually after 5, or whatever

I was thinking about this earlier - but tbh, for my child I wouldn't want a late admission that put him in a class that's over PAN anyway. I think we will be hedging our bets on an unpopular school with responsive teachers, small class sizes and not too many windows as a priority!

Googling that pdf to the Gov.uk site the relevant summary point seems to be:

"Summer-born pupils are also significantly more likely to be identified as having a special educational need than their older classmates. At the end of Key Stage 1, August-born pupils are nearly 90% more likely to be identified with SEN than September-born pupils; at Key Stage 2, this reduces to 60% more likely, and further to 25% more likely by Key Stage 4. The types of special educational need most disproportionate in summer-born pupils are moderate learning difficulties, specific learning difficulties, speech, language and communications needs, and other (unclassified) needs."

Which isn't saying what you claim it is saying.

Yes it is quite difficult yonic - I'm hopeful we'll get all the tests done and everything ready for DS before the January deadline for his admissions - but he has a friend with possible autism and they aren't sure he will get his diagnosis in time either because of the dx process which is waiting to see if he grows out of certain behaviours...

Archery such a good point! That rings very true near us. I ran a mile from one white MC faith school near us which seems to think reception was KS1 and was very formal. It seemed that that was the parental expectations. There are some amazing schools near us in the less desirable areas- with high support levels and resources

Can't paste the link as on phone. Google "Month of birth and education" school analysis and research division. That's one.

Is that 90% of summer borns are incorrectly diagnosed with SEN or 90% of those diagnosed have an error in their diagnosis? Is that through the entire school career or in YR?

Just seems ironic to rail against SEN diagnosis whilst at the same time requesting special provision for your child.

Almostapril or look for a school with a very low income demographic - which handily will be easy to get into as no middle class people put it as their first choice. My DS's school had a lot of the things you mention as useful to summerborns, possibly because a lot of the intake, of whatever age, needed a lot of support to get ready for the more formal aspects of schooling later.

Are you saying that 90% SEN kids are August born or that 90% of August borns are SEN?
Definately not my experience.

Myrtle, do you have a link for that?

tiggytape that was a very clear and useful post, thank you.

myrtlehh I stand corrected - I would now fight against the right for deferral on demand. Hope that helps.

I think the summer born concerned parents should focus ideally on choosing a school for the DC that is really geared up for 4 year olds with amazing EYFS facilities and teachers. All the schools I have seen do - look at seperate outdoor classrooms, playgrounds or play times, staff ratios, support levels etc
Of course however they may not all be open to them due the admissions minefield and they may need to be the correct faith lol

TeWi, your post reminds me of something that comes up often on admissions - children who probably will get a statement of needs at some point but are too young at the moment of the deadline for assessments and tests to have been completed.

I don't know if there is any way to expedite such assessments though.

Obviously some people loathe the idea of having their child lumped in with SN kids enough to kick up a massive stink about it though...

No Tewi, what I loathe is the idea of children bring misdiagnosed with SEN. And there is EVIDENCE that August born children are more likely to be misdiagnosed and we are talking about 90% likelihood. Not 1, not 10, but 90%!!! That's nearly all of them!!!

I'm with Archeryannie on this. I have been reading these boards for 2 years. I have DC at a huge school with a high number of summer borns. I know parents across all years. I have friends in loads of other schools with young DC in reception and several summer borns. No one has ever raised it as an issue. Reception in a good school is play based and not full of kids sat at desks doing hours of formal learning. I think a lot of people misunderstand reception year. The expectation at the end of the year is basic stuff to get them ready for KS1. It makes me sad when I hear of schools that do seem more formal or parents who want that.

That's a good point, TeWi.

Thank goodness, things in the world change despite people like you or we would still have women not allowed to be engineers, soldiers or gay to get married

Forget Stonewall, forget the suffragettes - to the barricades, comrades, for the middle class summerborns!

Seriously you lot, if this is important to you, talk about it all you like, that's fine. It's also fine if some of us point out that we struggle to see it as the most pressing problem that education has ever faced.

I think it's really off to have lots of people come on to a thread like this clearly to promote a single issue, and completely ignore everyone pointing out how your plan would disadvantage other children.

I have a child with hearing loss, he hasn't got a proper diagnosis yet because it's not a simple case. We don't know if he will have got one before I have to apply for a school place and therefore how likely we are to get a priority admission or adaptations made in time for him starting. I'm not sure that there is an answer to this that would also work well for other parents and allow schools time to plan or I would have made a suggestion!

What really, really would not help my DS - given that he is December born, is to have a third of his class be both the academic year older and significantly more able than him due to their extra time at preschool - shifting the focus of the class to be much more academic to suit the older children's needs and demanding more of the small group resources time that he needs, as a deaf child that might not wear hearing aids, to get anything at all done in a school setting.

It will be much better for my son to have a smaller age spread of children with a smaller range of ability, including those less able because they are young in their year, where he is not obviously the child with SN but one of a small group going at their own pace and supporting each other.

Obviously some people loathe the idea of having their child lumped in with SN kids enough to kick up a massive stink about it though...

Eh, myrtlehh? I'm not fighting against anybody, just saying that I have never come across this as an issue within school, ever.

As for the rest of your (pretty bizarre) post - weren't you ever taught that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

ArcheryAnnie,
Really glad that for your child things turned out for the better.
I must tell you though, that I am scared of people like you and some of the others on here.
You say Summerborns Campainers only fight for their own child, which is not true as many have explained already, but even if it was it would be a much better attitude than the one you have. What youndo is fighting against giving people a right and a choice just because it does not effect you personally. Who's the egocentric one? What difference does it make to you if everyone is given a choice? Who does not want to use it, is surely no worse off just by having it. The contrary cannot be said. It really amazes me that people can be so short sighted. The way people treat a minority tells a lot about their degree of civilisation. Thank goodness, things in the world change despite people like you or we would still have women not allowed to be engineers, soldiers or gay to get married.
And by the way, the fact that you never came across the Summerborn issue clearly shows that you have not even been reading major newspapers or watching the news on TV. Keeping up with the world just with MN is not very informative, let me tell you...

DC2 won't be of "CSA" until September 2016, although he is already four. In fact 5/12 of a cohort will not be until Y1.

Which is precisely why Reception is EYFS and not KS1.

If you AS "CSA" you get 99 refs to the child support agency, and this thread. Whilst I acknowledge that it is an issue, I think most MNers would acknowledge it a problem for premature and immature late July/August birthdays only.

By contrast nearly everyone agrees that the applications process is too confusing even for literate, engaged parents, and that underprovision and inequality have made selection/priority criteria problematic or even discriminatory.

My DC are all at school now so have been through this process 3 times. (And secondary school admissions twice...)

I do not think there should be faith schools at all. Two of my nearest schools are faith schools. We were therefore disadvantaged in the admissions process as I could not and would not apply for either of these. I do not want my children to attend a faith school (regardless of whether I would get in or not).

Having named schools as part of the admission criteria is useful and I like it as we have benefited fro it. For instance our infant school is separate from the juniors. However the admission criteria for the juniors is attendance of the infants, therefore making the changeover less stressful.

Summer borns - I have two. I would not want to defer their entry. I can see the problem at the other end. What happens when they reach 16 and are only in Y10. Can they then leave without taking their GCSEs?