Primary school admissions - MNHQ needs your thoughts!

I'd be interested in the stats for how many got no 1-3 preference in all areas. I say 1-3 as although we can do 6, fed want 4,5&6 as often further away. In our area extra classes and 5 free schools have opened so there is no shortage but no always in schools desired. (Although very few are bad)

MMHQ, could we have an update on what you're doing with the comments? I'm really hoping you can communicate some of our concerns to politicians so close to the election.
I know about lots of local parents' groups organising around the lack of primary places but there doesn't seem to be a wider campaign.
PLEASE update

In reality it would be a 'sad little kiddies in the local paper' moment and soon places would magically appear half a term later where the family need them.

They'd argue it isn't impossible, and a state education isn't guaranteed to be free. You have accepted the offers m,ade and it would be possible to arrange a cm for one of the children for each pickup and dropoff.

There are all kinds of inconveniences that schools and local authorities are not obliged to overcome or mitigate, many of which cost money and effortt sosolve.

I'm playing devil's advocate a lot bit. If the children had to be handed over by their mother, it would be literally impossible. But that isn't the case.

Mrs Hathaway, I honestly think that would utterly collapse as a legal argument. To say that you have to meet some impossible requirement in order to take up a school places that is yours by legal right is just not an option for Local Authorities.

AFIAK I have never heard of anyone being fined for being unable to be in two schools at the opposite end of town at the same time, because it would be so bloody unreasonable the local Government ombudsman would be all over any Local Authority trying to pull that as a stunt.

Of course, if I am wrong, it would be very interesting to know ...

I wonder what social services would say if a five year old was packed off on the bus to school by themselves nowadays? I do actually know a 7 and 5 yo who went together on the bus here and people kept an eye on them, but it was considered the least bad option.

I think most parents do choose the nearest schools to their house, or would at least be content with the nearest one - the problem in English cities is when you can be 5 min walk from a school and still over 100 on the waiting list just because there are so many more children than places at their nearest school and they have to be allocated around the borough to where spaces have been squeezed in. My 6 closest schools have all increased by 50 or 100% in the last 5 years and are still full!

In response to the OP, my village school is massively oversubscribed, due to 2,000 new houses buing built on the outskirts of the village. The nearest school to these houses is actually in the next village, however for parents that work this would mean driving to the school then driving back on themselves to get to work. (We live on a peninsula, there is only one road off)

This has resulted in many children who live closer to the school being allocated a place at a school 3 miles in the other direction, which is fine if you are dropping them before work as it is on your way, and of course if you drive. Plenty of people don't, and are struggling to get their children to school along a lane with no footpaths. Often walking past the village school on their way.

This is causing masive resentment towards the people who live on the new estate, particularly from those who have grown up in the village, and now can't get their children into the local school. It is not these peoples fault of course, but the infrastructure here is creaking under the weight of the new houses. More are due to be built, and this lack of foresight by the LA was, I believe, a big part of the reason that we recently ended up with a UKIP MP.

WRT the summer born issue, DD will be 4.2 when she starts school in September, and will probably be ok. Her best friend will also be 4.2, has a speech delay, and has just been told that she won't get into the village school with all her friends, which is a massive deal for her.

I see no point in delaying dd, she will only have to go into year 1 next year (because the school is so oversubscribed) which means the other children will all already have their friendship groups etc. I think it will be harder for her in the long run so have decided to just suck it up. She is fairly confident, and I do believe she will be fine, but plenty of 4 year old wouldn't - her best friend being a case in point.

I envy the Scots their system tbh. The biggest problem surely is the massive gap in standards between some schools - if it were an equal palying field I am sure most parents would just choose the school nearest to their house.

If you can't physically get somewhere in time because a government organisation has decided to put you in that position, surely that can be challenged?

Presumably the point is that you don't have to get them to school because you could HEd. Once you've made the choice (ha!) to put them into school you have to meet all the requirements.

But yes, it must absolutely suck.

Realistically if a parent had children in two separate schools come distance away, and this had been allocated by the local authority, I cannot possibly see how a fine for lateness would stand up legally. If you can't physically get somewhere in time because a government organisation has decided to put you in that position, surely that can be challenged?

I agree - there would need to be min 4 choices. Point taken Yonic. I suppose I was thinking that so many people seem believe they will get their catchment school as a back up even without listing it that it couldn't make that much worse?

Penguins is on to something though. (Hello again)

When we applied online for DC2 this year, you had to enter name, address, DoB, etc first, then click through to the school bit. You chose schools from a drop-down list, and our catchment school was first, then our insurance, etc, then others in alphabetical order IIRC.

I'm not sure if it knew we were in catchment, mind you, or going by distance as the crow flies from postcode to postcode.

Our LA has defined catchments so for any address it can say what the catchment school is. There could easily be a dialog box that says "you have not listed your catchment school in your preferences. Do you want to carry on, or go back and edit?" or a star next to your catchment school in the dropdown. Very easy coding.

Here we can only name three schools so forcing one "choice" would be a big reduction, compared with doing the same in a six-preference area.

Penguins, I think the problem with that would be the implicit guarantee that you'd get your nearest school/catchment school.

Actually, prompted by another thread....

In areas with actual catchments, I think the application should force you to put your catchment school somewhere in the preferences. It would prevent some of the worst parental cock ups on the form.

I think the other thing that needs to happen is that schools and local authorities need to realise that children are ending up in schools that are not their local school and may well also end up in a different school to their sibling. So they need to come up with some practical solutions for parents who do find themselves in those situations.

If parents need to be in two different places at the same time to ensure each child is in school at the right time, then obviously it's not going to happen. They might be lucky and have different starting times that makes it possible to juggle them but equally they might not. To just say 'your responsibility' and 'we'll fine you if your dc are late lots' is effectively putting a tax onto those who are unlucky enough to find themselves in this situation - which chances are they don't want to be in anyway - and is just adding insult to injury. And even if before or after school clubs are available it means that the parent(s) have to pay £5-20 a day per child for before and/or after school care which mounts up over the course of several years, that those that are lucky enough to have children in the same school won't have to pay out for.

Unfortunately I don't have any solutions. But I do think that in recognising that there is a problem, the councils do need to start to do some serious thinking about solutions so that parents aren't further penalised when they can't get into their local school or can't get siblings into school together.

yes people's employment changes for all kinds of reasons, you couldn't tie a school place to one place of work. But what is necessary - and seems revolutionary - but shouldnt - is for schools in general to recognise that parents work. Distance from school, wrap around care, etc - a million things can make things ok, possible but hellish, or frankly impossible. Why? Neither schooling your child nor going to work are optional!

I think the problem with that is you do not anymore have many people who stay in the same job for years and years So you end up with a similar situation to people renting for a few years to get into " good " schools.

Now that's utopian !

What about having parental employment needs on there as a criterion, so you could specify that you wanted your child at school near your workplace, for example, or you wanted to choose a school because it had wraparound care and you had a full-time job? Would that be a bit more modern than assuming a parent (usually mum) is free for up to 80 minutes twice a day to walk the legal maximum of 2 miles each way to primary school?

Would shared catchments work any better?

I have only read to page number 10 However I wanted to comment on how much " catchment area" is used.as a fair suggestion on how children should be admitted to a school.

I live on the border of 3 counties with a 4th being 10 minutes down the road.

When using catchment areas some of our closest schools are outside of catchment areas as they are in different counties. So for me saying people in catchment area is not a good idea.
I would far rather it was done simply by distance NOT by catchment area.

However doing distance only makes for issues in places where this means that you have a river or a motor way inbetween so really can not sensibility manage the 1 mile journey to the school without going for a 30 minute drive. I don't fully know the answer to this if such schools could say (for example) M25 is the cut off or how and this then becomes a issue. Perhaps walking route is more sensible. Judging however from the many issues I see on this on the school boards I know that is not without flaw either.

I am however not a fan of " catchment areas or admission priority areas as they are called"

For my sons secondary school they use a interesting system (I feel) it is done by inner circle (within 3 miles of the school) and then by parish (not a CofE school btw) The 2nd actually cuts off at the border to another county so they go quite low on the list now, for them this may feel unfair. So perhaps a mixture of this saying a inner circle of for example 2 miles (or even 1 mile) and everyone else (siblings included ) on distance would be fair. Would make a admission criteria similar to this

I am not adding SEN as I understand it if you have a statement then you will get in via different means to usual admission.

1 LAC
2 Siblings within inner circle
3 children living in inner circle
4 all other children done by distance.

You could even use this for faith schools
1 LAC
2 Siblings of faith within inner circle
3 Children of faith living in inner circle
4 Children not of faith living in inner circle
5 Children of faith outside inner circle on distance (could have a sibling clause there too)
6 Children not of faith outside inner circle on distance.

(I am not entering the argument on if Faith schools should exist here they do and I am using this as an example)

The CofE primary my youngest attends recently change their admission criteria they now have 4 named parish as their 2nd priority (after lac) This means for one of those Parish they for the first in many years they have a school they are high priority to get into. (I am unaware of there ever having been a school in this parish)
It caused some issues as it meant that children from this parish were admitted above children living in the closer town. However to me it was utterly fair to do as otherwise the children living in this parish often ended up without a close school. This school IS their closest school. Where as the children living in the local town has a choice of the town school and 3 other village schools.

So in this case I feel admitting children who lives further away first is actually very fair. So for such situations there should be a possibility to make a inner circle that was done on Parish or other sensible reasons. (like motorways that isnt possible to cross)

almostapril I am a higher ed teacher...not early years but steeped in general pedagogic theory.

Fundamentally kids are ready for formal education at different ages. That difference decreases somewhat as they get older. I think anybody should be able to ask to put their kids into formal education earlier or later than standard and have that claim tested then acted on. I also thing kids should be able to move forwards and backwards years more easily if necessary.

Other than that I agree with waspie

AlmostApril - Bit of a way down now, but I've just checked the websites of local schools. The 'best' schools (i.e. the competitive ones with the outstanding rating) have their phonics results on the website. Our school doesn't and DD1 must be doing it soon but I've never heard of it. Yet we have comparable SATs results at KS2 (marginally ahead in some subjects, marginally below on others. Varies which subject by year so I'm assuming that's the natural variation in ability of the cohort).

I agree with your point on siblings Yonic. My son was placed in a bulge class 5 miles from home but the LA then stipulated that younger siblings would be able to request this school as their catchment school, which struck me as surprisingly sensible!

As to the obligation to be placed in the nearest/catchment school I can also see so many practical problems with this, like you all can. This is my utopian dream rather than something I think could actually happen

I am not in London, but Berkshire, and we have had huge issues with over subscription due to vast numbers of number homes being built and the increase in the birth rate. I have posted before about the fact that we (as a community group) ended up opening a free school in our area in order that the local children had a school within walking distance to attend. Our free school is run exactly as an LA school would be, i.e. it follows the national curriculum, employs qualified teachers and has the same admission criteria as every other (non faith) school in the borough. It took 2.5 years of very hard work (hard work is ongoing!) and we opened in Sept 2014 already running a waiting list for all three years (R, Yr1 and Yr2). We will be full again this year and running a waiting list for Reception. We are also opening another Yr3 class due to the large waiting list. However the LA have still never acknowledged that we have a places shortage/issue in our area.

ArcheryAnnie - interesting point on non-conformist schools being given to the state. I think the same thing happened with hospitals. Now we would be shocked if a hospital wouldn't admit a patient because they were not a practising member of that faith. Yet, we accept the situation in education.

I'm in the slightly unusual position of already knowing which school ds2 is going to next year and accepting the offer -Milton Keynes council screwed up and sent out some of their letters about 10 days ago, by mistake. About 100 letters didn't get sent out which caused lots of angst for some parents who didn't know when their children's friends did and at first MK council refused to let them know in advance but apparently they have now relented so everybody in MK knows. It's certainly reduced the stress as the letter turned up before I'd had a chance to start worrying about the imminent offer, so maybe more councils should do this! Does make a mockery of national results day though and raises red flags as to other mistakes that might have been made that just weren't quite so obvious...

Other than that - Both schools that ds1 and ds2 go to have split their entry criteria so that siblings within catchment are treated differently to siblings from out of catchment - who come after children without siblings in the catchment area. This seems to be an eminently sensible way to significantly cut down on the number of people that rent an address locally to get their first child into a school and then rely on the sibling preference to get the rest of the siblings in whilst others from within the catchment area end up having to find schools elsewhere. Obviously it's not a perfect solution - I don't think there is one, but it is something that would be pretty easy to implement and could really make a difference.

And back in time, when ds1 first needed to go to school, we didn't get anything through to warn us about application dates. I don't know what I was expecting - but I was expecting something to come through, like a letter or form I suppose, in the same way that when it was time for a vaccination or Health Visitor check, a letter turned up.

As it was, pure fluke, I happened to be at the GPs and saw a small poster on their noticeboard that had the dates on - and the closing date was the next week. Luckily I was able to go and have a look around a couple of schools and get the application in on time but another school said that they had already done their open days and so it was tough, I couldn't look around. I had been at the GPs a month or so previously and hadn't seen the poster then - and if I hadn't been to the GPs then I don't know how I would have found out about the dates in time. Not knowing any parents of older children locally, it just hadn't occurred to me that the application date came around as soon as it did (pre national results day and it wasn't such a big thing in the news). So something that lets first time parents know in advance about the timings of these things would have been really welcomed, rather than hoping they saw a small poster!