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OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
TerribleMother · 29/10/2014 09:30

My god, reading this thread is so frustrating. It would appear that their is either a lot of genuine misunderstandings going on, or a lot of disingenuous posting.

The people who are against troll 'hunters', (and mnhq for that matter if I'm reading correctly), arent claiming that (1) trolls don't exist (2) trolls don't cause hurt or damage (3) everyone should categorically believe everything that's posted (4) no one should be allowed to ask any clarifying question, no matter how obvious the mistake/inconsistency (5) anyone who asks a question is immediately a troll hunter (5a) anyone who asks a question and is immediately a troll hunter is also the devil incarnate.

What, in actual fact seems to be being said and totally missed or deliberately ignored, is that it's no one but mnhq's job to ultimately decide that a poster/thread is dodgy or to warn other posters of the fact, it's perfectly ok to clarify something that seems inconsistent (different dates in different posts etc), but in a 'sorry, have I missed something', rather than in a 'hmmm I smell bullshit' kind of way, and finally, if the thread is screaming 'HAIRY HANDED FUCKING TROLL' at you, then the rules are simple:- report, and step away.

Some posters just don't seem to be able to accept this and seem hell bent on accusing mnhq and some posters of being some kind of troll appreciation society.

While I can understand the upset that the overnight 'watch' does appear inadequate, there doesn't seem to be any reason other than bloody mindedness for refusal to adhere to the rules.

I'm sorry if this post has been ridiculously ranty but reading this thread is enough to make a saint swear.

ExtraWickedDevil · 29/10/2014 08:24

I agree there needs to be a fast and effective response to reports 24/7. After all trolls don't clock off at 5, and MNHQ need to be consistent if they wish to be respected.

But I wonder if there could also be a way to prevent PMs being sent to an OP where a thread is bring questioned? Other posters have suggested that threads are locked while MNHQ checks things out, and I would support this idea so long as posters can't PM the OP and possibly risk being drawn in to a troll's fantasy?

PuddingandPie1 · 29/10/2014 08:13

The troll hunters seeing their level of support slipping away now seem to be claiming that anybody who disagrees with their point of view is "prone to a bit of trolling themselves" and/or "slagging of people who call troll just feeds the trolls".

Of course neither is true - both trolls and troll hunters want to ignore the Mumsnet rules and they feed off each other to the detriment of the vast majority of users.

YeGodsAndLittleFishes · 29/10/2014 07:56

Yes, clarifying questions is one thing, but asking for personal information which the OP doesn't want to share online can result in the OP feeling unsupported and rejected or making stuff up as a way round the obstacles being thrown at them. In other words, sometimes it is these questions themselves which are the causes for the problems on some of these threads!

LittleBearPad · 28/10/2014 22:30

Posters should be allowed to ask clarifying questions, any real poster would surely answer if they think they'll get better advice by making things clearer. Snide comments like 'is this your first post OP?' and bridge-dweller comments are just obnoxious.

2shoeprintsintheblood · 28/10/2014 22:25

i think all this hatred of troll "hunting" is plain daft.
the hurt is caused by trolls is what should be discussed and how that can be stopped.
seeing people telling personal tales and giving support, and the the thread going, cos it is another troll, that is what will damage MN.
I know on a small level I will never reach out as I did the other day.
I bet I am not alone.
yet all mn hq seems to care about is the people who say troll,
allowing a thread that ia made up to stand, whilst running this thread imo is a a bad call. joke threads can be fun, but not if they are pretending to be serious.
slagging of people who call troll, just feeds the trolls.

Upandatem · 28/10/2014 22:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ScaryZ · 28/10/2014 22:18

It's posts like Miscellaneous's that really make me despair.

"troll hunting does so much damage"

I think the only think MN can do to discourage trolls is to stop this focussing on troll-hunting. They could start by acknowledging that the many posters who point out trolling by reporting and who try to prevent too many innocent bystanders being drawn into threads (again by reporting, or sometimes posting a subtle warning on thread), aren't troll hunting. They aren't wandering around the board trying to catch people out, trying to pick holes in poster's stories, trying to find "trolls". They are normal users of mn who recognise the same stories appearing over and over again, with the same drama and often the same posters.

I'm not talking about shouting "bollocks" on thread. I'm talking about seeing the trolls drawing people in, and getting frustrated at threads staying up for days longer than they should.

What does damage to MN is the trolls. And posters are no longer allowed to "arify confusions and errors, ask searching questions and do the odd 'reported'" - that is against guidelines.

If there were no trolls, firstly no-one would see any, because they wouldn't be there, and secondly genuine posters could post knowing that their stories wouldn't be questioned, because there would be no trolling.

I defy anyone who has been on MN more than a couple of years to honestly state that there isn't a massive troll problem on here. And if they genuinely believe that there is no trolling or that trolls do no harm, then they are either naive, or prone to a bit of trolling themselves.

OneSkinnyChip · 28/10/2014 22:16

:o

IamtheWalkingDead · 28/10/2014 22:06

Good video, Rebecca. Zombie laughed out loud. Grin

RebeccaMumsnet · 28/10/2014 22:02

@headlesslambrini

Re: trolling. Can MNHQ tell when there are several accounts to the same IP address? I have no idea how these things work but if so then if a 2nd or 3rd account is registered from the same IP address within a specified time frame then could this trigger some sort of delayed registration or a flag for MNHQ to check on posts / user activity before giving them full access to MN

We can see that, yes and we do have something like this in place - yes, we're being Grin

Thanks all for your feedback, we are still reading through and will be back with more comprehensive responses to some of the issues raised after we have met at the end of the week.

OneSkinnyChip · 28/10/2014 21:40

Thanks for the link Tomb / Light - I remember that one now!

needapee · 28/10/2014 21:36

Can I add a totally random thought (haven't read all of the thread Blush sue me!)

Would it be really difficult to have a section of Talk to which access is only open to posters who have been members for x period of time, say over a year or something? I know this doesn't directly address the problem, but so many MNers end up using the site for years and years that you could have a busy and active old-timers section in which troll hunting would surely be much less likely or necessary. It could have a lighter moderation policy than the rest of the site. And MN could feel more comfortable closing down dubious threads on the rest of the site since the users posting there are perhaps less likely to be relying as heavily on MN for support (or to be genuine ...). You could still allow long term members access to all the site, but just reserve some of the talk boards until posters have more of a history.

headlesslambrini · 28/10/2014 21:36

Re: trolling. Can MNHQ tell when there are several accounts to the same IP address? I have no idea how these things work but if so then if a 2nd or 3rd account is registered from the same IP address within a specified time frame then could this trigger some sort of delayed registration or a flag for MNHQ to check on posts / user activity before giving them full access to MN

MiscellaneousAssortment · 28/10/2014 21:35

I support mumsnet in that troll hunting does so much damage, and damage the hunters seem to either be blind to or very cavalier about - its acceptable collateral damage to them.

There is no need for it.

Yes absolutely clarify confusions and errors, ask searching questions and do the odd 'reported' if you must.

But don't get swelled with vicious savagery hell bent and hounding and chasing down the one in your sights. Dress it up as virtuous and saving people from harm all you like, its unpleasant, unnecessary and cruel.

I say this as someone who had to name change after my difficulties were deemed too incredible and the hunters started to get their knives out. I desperately needed support and some lovely individuals were there for me, but so much damage was done by the unthinking callousness of others. I know mn is not a specialist support forum, I know you can't rely on it. But surely sharing something you're shocked and upset by shouldn't result in further alienating cruelty. It just shouldn't.

usualsuspect333 · 28/10/2014 21:30

I don't think anything can change TBH.

You have said it's difficult to prove if someones trolling especially if they have a posting history. So I'm not sure what can change there.

If funny troll threads are left up then more people will start them, it's the way of the internet.

I don't really blame you for leaving the funny threads up, you need traffic or MN will die.

But I do think that focusing on 'troll hunters' causes more angst on here than anything else.

headlesslambrini · 28/10/2014 21:28

Is there anyway in which an thread can still be active but taken off the public boards? This way the OP can still keep talking and get support but the support can be from organisations such as the Samaritans. MN could have an agreement with them so that they take over when the professional element of support is needed.

RebeccaMumsnet · 28/10/2014 21:13

@usualsuspect333

Which is my point really. People will still make stuff up, some posters will think it's funny, some won't.

Nothing will change.

What would you like to see change usual?

We do see a difference between a nasty troll who is here to cause upset and hurt and a stupid troll who is here for half term the kicks but is harmless, mainly because they are so blatant.

Both will be banned when they are reported to us but we would probably deal with the aftermath slightly differently.

usualsuspect333 · 28/10/2014 20:57

And I'm sock puppeting on this thread. ooops

usualsuspect333 · 28/10/2014 20:53

Which is my point really. People will still make stuff up, some posters will think it's funny, some won't.

Nothing will change.

usualsuspect333 · 28/10/2014 20:51

Well MNHQ like a nice funny thread, doesn't matter to them if it's not real really.

ScreamerMaanAndGoryOn · 28/10/2014 20:47

Up thread HQ said that marbles wasn't a troll or trolling. Marbles seems like an easy going poster who could let it wash over her though.

usualsuspect333 · 28/10/2014 20:44

If you deliberately start a thread to get an emotional response of any kind. be that to cause an argument, to get a laugh, to make everyone feel sorry for you, you are trolling the internet.

usualsuspect333 · 28/10/2014 20:39

Of course they are a troll.

Dinglethdragon · 28/10/2014 20:33

I think some people are a bit confused over what IS a troll though - some seem to imply that anyone telling porkies or untruths or who is a fantasist is a troll Hmm

that is not the commonly understood meaning of the word, a Troll is someone seeking to provoke a reaction by shit stirring. the wikipedia explanation is a good one I think en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

someone living a fantasy life online and pulling people in to their web of deceit is not a Troll - more of a catfish.