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OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:52

Here's the thread on which we announced and explained Night Watch. It's been working very well so far and egregious overnight stuff has been getting zapped very quickly.

OP posts:
BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 10:52

if they employed a MH worker they still wouldn't have all the info to hand.

This is a parenting website last time I looked. Not MH

LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 10:51

Why the hell are mnhq leaving the site in the hands of volunteers after hours??? Don't they make enough money to pay properly trained and invested people to do the night shift??? Incredulou

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 10:48

I would say NOT.
I am sure Samaritans should be our/your default reference in this case. No one knows of other MH issues the person has.
It should be thread locked with the Samaritans no posted on it

And night watch people should be able to lock.

DrankSangriaInThePark · 23/10/2014 10:48

Don't you wish LEM?

They are, I believe, common or garden MNers, but prob abroad so around when most of us are offline.

So if anyone wants to try their hand at trolling, night time is the right time.

Which I believe has been amply proven the last few days....

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:47

@WannaBe

"We've got the Night Watch, who are there to zap egregious overnight stuff and have mostly been doing a good job of it as far as we can see - but we're happy to beef this up if there's a consensus that there need to be more of them." that thread from last night was still there this morning. I reported it at around 12:30 and it was being discussed openly on that nightwatch thread and yet it's only just gone.

So are you telling us that the night watch team are so busy deleting general spammy threads that it took eight hours to get round to one which was hugely triggering at best because it was reminiscent of the previous thread, and deeply dubious at worst and contained a completely different version of events to the previous one and would have been a good indication as to its authenticity?

We'll have a look

OP posts:
LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 10:47

I imagine mnet makes a big bundle of cash out of this forum and you mean to tell me that they can't be arsed to monitor it during the night when incidents are more likely to occur??? do they leave the prefects in charge? I was bullied horribly by the prefects at school.

Wereweatherwool · 23/10/2014 10:46

The rules do work IMHO.

I have been on both ends and posted about a hideous RL situation on MN and got called troll and shouted down left, right and centre - it made me feel about this big and i think sometimes people invest too much time fighting and shouting troll and not actually respecting each other.

I was also the victim of DV and the support I got will stay with me forever.

Drama does happen in life and when the chips are down, it's nice to have an anon place to come and rant and have some support. Things are better for me now and i try and pay forward the support i was given.

If it smells like a troll, i report and walk away. That system does work if everyone would trust that MN would deal with it. I imagine MNHQ can see a fair amount more than we can, at least I hope they can or we're all doomed Wink

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:46

@MrsLettuce

There was a big discussion about this in '09 (I think), the circumstances weren't dissimilar. I could have sworn that MNHQ had taken advice / revised their policy / made A Plan at the time. Allegedly lessons were learnt, but here we are again.

We've had the discussion several times MrsLettuce and as far as we know we've implemented the policies we came up with at the time.

One of the problems is there is absolutely no consensus, among posters, about how these threads should be dealt with. Many MNers feel VERY strongly that genuine users who feel suicidal should be able to use MN as a source of support and help. Others feel VERY strongly that they should not.

OP posts:
NeedaDiscoNap · 23/10/2014 10:45

Thank you! I have spotted that on some threads but didn't know there was a name for it.

LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 10:45

Volunteers? ?? With what training? You are joking surely??

LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 10:44

What is nightwatch? Are these paid mn employees??

MrsVamoOOOOOOOOOOs · 23/10/2014 10:44

Night watch isn't working.

Self-moderating only works if you let posters moderate.

What we are allowed to say and not allowed to say has changed so much, there's not much point, it feels like.

DrankSangriaInThePark · 23/10/2014 10:44

They're volunteers I think LEM.

WannaBe · 23/10/2014 10:43

"We've got the Night Watch, who are there to zap egregious overnight stuff and have mostly been doing a good job of it as far as we can see - but we're happy to beef this up if there's a consensus that there need to be more of them." that thread from last night was still there this morning. I reported it at around 12:30 and it was being discussed openly on that nightwatch thread and yet it's only just gone.

So are you telling us that the night watch team are so busy deleting general spammy threads that it took eight hours to get round to one which was hugely triggering at best because it was reminiscent of the previous thread, and deeply dubious at worst and contained a completely different version of events to the previous one and would have been a good indication as to its authenticity?

DrankSangriaInThePark · 23/10/2014 10:43

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:43

@TantrumsAndBalloons

I have to agree with giles

You can't be a self moderating forum and a moderated one at the same time. It seems slightly ridiculous to say it can work.

It's so fucking easy to troll here. It's a joke. And day after day people get taken in and offer real life help, share emotional stories, experiences because they want to help someone. People are giving out their phone numbers ffs because they want to help.

And then we have to have 17 spin off threads after its deleted just to rehash the whole sorry mess all over again.

And- posting history? Means nothing. Sorry but it doesn't.

We're not self-moderated - we're moderated. Every single report gets dealt with and replied to, and tbh while we work hard it doesn't feel from this end as though we have more reports than we can handle.

There is simply no such thing, anywhere on the internet, as a public forum that doesn't attract its share of trolls, inflammatory posters and posters who attract disbelief. And there is no magic way of getting rid of them. It's not that there are tools MNHQ could be using and aren't.

OP posts:
LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 10:43

Can somebody please answer my question about the nightwatch?

Perfectlypurple · 23/10/2014 10:42

I don't post on the threads I feel are suspicious. To me the more dramatic ones are obvious, it's the subtle no drama ones i tend to believe and post on which annoys me when they turn out to be not genuine.

ElliotLovesGrub · 23/10/2014 10:42

We do know it's bloody hard at times. The hardest cases are those in which nobody knows for sure, including us.

We aren't asking for people to pretend they're not happening - but we are asking you to keep on-board discussions general and report specific concerns to MNHQ.

That makes sense, thanks. :)

I suppose MNHQ have to be extra careful. It's easy for us to be black and white about the long term trolls when we see them but I suppose MNHQ have to be responsible for the 1% chance that it is a real poster too because it would be on your heads if you didn't play the "just in case it's real" game. It must be frustrating.

TeaAndALemonTart · 23/10/2014 10:42

So banning is pointless then isn't it?

New name, few posts on baby names and Whoohoo, posting history so can't possibly be a troll.

It's very hard to see people being suckered in, especially when the posting style is exactly the same as a PBP. (Not aimed at recent threads)

MrsLettuce · 23/10/2014 10:41

There was a big discussion about this in '09 (I think), the circumstances weren't dissimilar. I could have sworn that MNHQ had taken advice / revised their policy / made A Plan at the time. Allegedly lessons were learnt, but here we are again.

LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 10:40

What exactly us this night watch? What training do they have? WHY aren't mnhq on duty in the night? That is madness

DrankSangriaInThePark · 23/10/2014 10:40

Sockpuppeting is creating an ID to support yourself on a thread.

Often a poster will come on, say, and post on behalf of a poster. Forgetting that anybody with any grasp whatsoever of writing styles can spot immediately it's the same person. A missing full stop at the end of every sentence for example. You spot someone claiming to simply be supporting an OP, but making the same stylistic choices, there's your sock.

TantrumsAndBalloons · 23/10/2014 10:39

I have to agree with giles

You can't be a self moderating forum and a moderated one at the same time. It seems slightly ridiculous to say it can work.

It's so fucking easy to troll here. It's a joke. And day after day people get taken in and offer real life help, share emotional stories, experiences because they want to help someone. People are giving out their phone numbers ffs because they want to help.

And then we have to have 17 spin off threads after its deleted just to rehash the whole sorry mess all over again.

And- posting history? Means nothing. Sorry but it doesn't.