Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:10

@BettyMoody

it might have helped them- but look at the shit its caused now. Think MN needs to decide WHAT it is, and not be something to everyone?

It's really tricky. On the one hand we have users who are in with the bricks (either because they're long-term MNers or because they just become part of MN very quickly) and who probably broadly share similar ideas of what MN is. Those users tend to form fast friendships and use MN for lots of different things, from school-run dresses to MH support.

But we are also a truly massive community now with many disparate voices and many different opinions about how things like this should be handled.

And also, alongside that, some persistent re-regging trouble-makers and drive-by irritants.

OP posts:
WannaBe · 23/10/2014 11:10

"It's a chat forum. Why do we expect them to be responsible for grown adults and our feelings or vulnerability?" because if there are rl implications as a result of those vulnerabilities then the buck would stop with mn. We read all the time about people who harm themselves/children who come to harm after going on x or y website to read about self harm/eating disorders/meet up with virtual strangers. Mn is no different.

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:09

yup - perfectly explained magi

magimedi · 23/10/2014 11:08

It's only a discussion forum not a mental health service or a health service or anything that owes anybody anything. It's a chat forum.

I agree. And it's free and you don't have to be here.

I don't understand the reluctance of people to report threads. It's not like "telling tales", it's saying to HQ that in your opinion you think something is wrong/dodgy & pointing it out to them. I've reported lots of threads, not just for suspect trollery but for ageism, advertising etc.

I've always had a reply & quite often my opinion has not been agreed with & the thread has been allowed to stand. But there is always a reason in the reply & that's fine by me.

I like it here, it's fun & can be very supportive but it's not real life and I'm always aware that anyone, anywhere on the internet could so easily not be what they seem.

As to suicide threads I think they should have a link to the Samaritans & be closed. The potential for trouble, be it trolling & upset or a live suicide is just to great & outweighs any benefits.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/10/2014 11:07

Does MN get a lot of suicide threads? If so is there any way MNHQ could liaise with Samaritans to offer on thread support by a trained Samaritans volunteer with other users locked out, and the thread hidden to all but the OP and Samaritans bod?

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:07

its only when you get trolls and suicide that it becomes really bad.
the rest of the time you just ignore or blither on about teachers contracted hours Wink

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:06

( bit like Marks and spencer shakes fist angrily )

Wereweatherwool · 23/10/2014 11:05

When the troll hunters rounded on me MNHQ mailed me and said they were dealing.

I was cross that it had happened but it's not HQ that did it, they tried to put it right, even if it did take a while.

I agree, rock - hard place. They can't totally troll proof the site, this is the internet but we could stop eating ourselves.

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:05

it might have helped them- but look at the shit its caused now.
Think MN needs to decide WHAT it is, and not be something to everyone?

LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 11:05

I think i've seen enough. Thanks for the replies Hmm

EdwinDrood · 23/10/2014 11:04

I hope Wombat is ok, no matter what.

Seems to me that a lot of the issues raised stem from the fact people keep starting threads asking "what happened with xxx" - which does feel like protracted troll hunting. If people mailed HQ when they were curious, rather than dragging everything up again, we probably could have avoided last night.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:03

[quote BettyMoody]i don't think this is part of the Mn remit, talking people down. And is a dangerous path to tread. They might be long term mumsnetters but they cannot, CANNOT rely on advice from strangers on here. ( unless about mum boots obv Grin )

It is very dangerous indeed.

www.samaritans.org/[/quote]

Thanks Betty and we know lots of people agree with you on that one. There are also some who feel very strongly that it has helped them in the past though. And this is the cleft stick we are stuck in at the moment (and why we want to know what people think, so that once we've got expert advice from the Samaritans we can put it together with what users have said and try to come up with something measured and sensible.)

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:00

@WannaBe

tbh it doesn't take a lot of training to become a forum moderator and to be able to look for the things which would make someone potentially identifyable as a fake, or to be able to lock threads etc. I imagine that the likes of rowan etc who work at mn hq by day have the moderation side as a small part of their role, whereas the night watch team will be essentially on call to do just that. so I can see why they wouldn't necessarily be paid individuals - they are most likely members themselves who happen to be around overnight rather than people who spend their entire night just looking at threads.

Nearly WannaBe, but me and the rest of the team are full-time on community/site duties (ie purely on replying to reports and looking at Talk-related issues) all day every day. We are also on call up until late in the evening.

We don't have paid mods overnight, no - never have had. We did have a big discussion about this before we started the Night Watch and sod's law can't find the thread to link to right now

OP posts:
BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 11:00

this It's only a discussion forum not a mental health service or a health service or anything that owes anybody anything. It's a chat forum.

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 10:59

i don't think this is part of the Mn remit, talking people down. And is a dangerous path to tread. They might be long term mumsnetters but they cannot, CANNOT rely on advice from strangers on here. ( unless about mum boots obv Grin )

It is very dangerous indeed.

www.samaritans.org/

ElliotLovesGrub · 23/10/2014 10:59

Reading some of the responses, I'm wondering now why we (including me) expect MNHQ to do so much? It's only a discussion forum not a mental health service or a health service or anything that owes anybody anything. It's a chat forum. Why do we expect them to be responsible for grown adults and our feelings or vulnerability? This has got me thinking.

MiddletonPink · 23/10/2014 10:58

HQ can't win.

I'm saddened in a way that wombat is real. After the thread was halted posters have said she was a troll. It made me doubt what she had written too.

But HQ have know reason to doubt her. That's good enough for me.

And like somebody upthread said MN is not compulsory.

I'm glad to see that HQ are revising their thoughts on suicide threads.

WannaBe · 23/10/2014 10:58

"
To be fair they were probably genuinely unsure what to do about last night's thread - this is a very tricky situation." presumably though you have some kind of nightwatch staff mailing list or some such? in which case wouldn't it be prudent to make them aware of current issues such as posters you have suspended/threads you've deleted and wy?

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:58

@CuttedUpPear

I totally agree with what bettymoody said about nightwatch being able to lock threads, and posting the Samaritans' contact on it.

MNHQ what do you think this?

yy they can and do lock threads. We can absolutely ask them to routinely lock suicidal threads and add a link to the Samaritans - but of course that will mean that any user (including absolutely nailed-on long-term MNers) will not be able to use MN to talk to people if they're feeling suicidal overnight.

OP posts:
LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 10:57

So are there ANY paid members of staff on duty overnight? Yes or no?

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 10:55

ANY suicide thread - Samaritans and lock.

WannaBe · 23/10/2014 10:55

tbh it doesn't take a lot of training to become a forum moderator and to be able to look for the things which would make someone potentially identifyable as a fake, or to be able to lock threads etc. I imagine that the likes of rowan etc who work at mn hq by day have the moderation side as a small part of their role, whereas the night watch team will be essentially on call to do just that. so I can see why they wouldn't necessarily be paid individuals - they are most likely members themselves who happen to be around overnight rather than people who spend their entire night just looking at threads.

CuttedUpPear · 23/10/2014 10:55

I totally agree with what bettymoody said about nightwatch being able to lock threads, and posting the Samaritans' contact on it.

MNHQ what do you think this?

BettyMoody · 23/10/2014 10:55

oh right, sorry. I am rarely on here at night.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:53

@BettyMoody

I would say NOT. I am sure Samaritans should be our/your default reference in this case. No one knows of other MH issues the person has. It should be thread locked with the Samaritans no posted on it

And night watch people should be able to lock.

Thanks Betty. NW do lock things until we can have a look. To be fair they were probably genuinely unsure what to do about last night's thread - this is a very tricky situation.

OP posts: