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OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
Modestine · 30/10/2014 15:30

another good point imo, Dinglethdragon. I'd ratehr MNHQ spent their time making the site a happier place to be than endlessly answering emails, or indeed time-wasting threads in Site Stuff. Although I concede that they're not all time-wasting.

PacificWerewolf · 30/10/2014 15:28

I quite like being told by MNHQ whether or not a suspicion/hunch I had was correct or not, particularly if I reported a thread I had not posted on. Needy, moi?! Blush

Re 'royalty': I've hung out in the wilds of t'interweb enough that that concept does exist on many sites and forums, and there are posters here I recognise (and love or loathe, depending Grin). I will gladly consider advice on home improvement given by PigletJohn (I mention him by name because I consider him universally uncontroversial, lovely guy) even though he could of course be a nail technician from Milton Keynes for all I know. I would NOT take make-up tips from him though… Is he 'royalty'?
I don't think so. But I'd take his word over somebody else's on certain subjects.

I don't think that MN is particularly 'guilty' of making special allowances for longstanding members. But maybe I am not on here enough to see discrimination, positive and negative, happening… My children would be even more feral than they are if I spent even more time on MN than I do

trufflesnout · 30/10/2014 15:22

Technically they are guidelines.

You reminded me of this Grin would make a lovely banner for the MN rules page imho

OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters
Dinglethdragon · 30/10/2014 14:55

Do people really worry about getting a reply from MNHQ? I don't, I'm really not bothered and think it must be a massive waste of their time. If I report someone breaking guidelines then I reckon I've done my community-minded bit and I forget about it.

Maybe there could be an option to tick a box that says whether a response is wanted or not? I can't imagine many people would rather MNHQ spend their time replying to reports than investigating them.... or am I just weird?

BeyondPreparedForHell · 30/10/2014 14:01

No worries Flowers
My times are an hour different to yours rowan, i guess thats cause of the clock change. But yep, that does all match up :)

I wonder if it would be handy to be emailed a copy of any of your own reports? So people know when they did report something, before they start moaning about it taking yeeeeears for hq to respond Blush

emotionsecho · 30/10/2014 13:36

IMO people sneeringly described as MN Royalty or regulars get a far harder time on here both by MNHQ and other posters.

I do think a system of 'lock and hide whilst investigating' would help it might mitigate a little what FrontForward has described in her second paragraph.

FrontForward · 30/10/2014 13:27

I'd really like a 'this one is cut and dried' button. Some stuff is quite obviously PA or troll hunting. A simple quick delete would nip a bun fight in the bud sooner.

FrontForward · 30/10/2014 13:22

I think the big difference between MN and other forums I have used is the subject matter. There is a constant stream of sensitive topics on here meaning handling deletion of troll hunting and trolling is massively important. I can appreciate your last post saying that you have to wait and watch sometimes but maybe there should be a mail to the reporter saying that?

I have reported threads and also waited several hours for a response (sometimes next day). The response has then been such, that the damage has been done (delay) and the troll hunting was quoted anyway in following posts (those were not deleted) so a vulnerable poster had to face seeing her life described as a pack of lies and disbelief. It felt a little like the opposite of we believe you and was ugly to witness. She was not found to be a troll. It was horrible to see someone needing support have her life laughed at, just because some posters couldn't imagine the mess she found herself in.

Upandatem · 30/10/2014 13:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RowanMumsnet · 30/10/2014 13:00

@BeyondPreparedForHell

This help rowan? -

"Re: What happened to the thread about the | And he wouldn't take no for an answer?? | rpt-206809"

I do apologise btw, the thread was dealt with quicker than i thought (rec'd above email at 8.30pm), it was the pm report (re the same thread) that wasnt responded to til the next morning.

Brilliant, thank you. Our time stamps (GMT in this case) say we got your report at 5.37pm and replied at 7.30pm the same day.

We don't have a record of you reporting the same thread again in the evening - you did report a related PM that evening (at 5pm) and we replied the next morning (at 9.50am), is that the one you mean?

With both the extended time replying to you about the PM, and the deletion message - we were in a really tricky position. We had (and still have) no proof that the second poster was actually the first poster, so we couldn't openly accuse them of that. And the thread was on a particularly tricky topic, and one where it would be a bit disastrous to openly conclude that someone was a lying troll - there was (and still is) a possibility that both posters were telling the truth, and we had to make a decision on balance of probability and the amount of distress the threads were causing.

So the delay in replying, in this case, wasn't because of understaffing so much as because we were weighing the risks vs benefits of allowing the second poster to continue posting, and these things tend to become clearer over a passage of time.

We couldn't use the deletion message 'this poster has already been banned twice already' because we couldn't link that poster to the first at all. In the end the deletion message mentioned both TAAT and troll-hunting, which seems fair in the (very murky) circumstances?

Sorry you had to wait overnight for the reply, though.

OP posts:
BeyondPreparedForHell · 30/10/2014 12:12

This help rowan? -

"Re: What happened to the thread about the | And he wouldn't take no for an answer?? | rpt-206809"

I do apologise btw, the thread was dealt with quicker than i thought (rec'd above email at 8.30pm), it was the pm report (re the same thread) that wasnt responded to til the next morning.

However in the mean time (if this helps jog your memory?) another thread was started in site stuff about the troll hunting on the deleted thread. The deletion message also said that it was cause of troll hunting, rather than because the poster had already been banned twice, or that it was a taat, which i wouldnt say is really particularly fair?

ChillingGrinBloodLover · 30/10/2014 11:40

So, so sorry Rowan Haloween Sad - there isn't enough Wine Wine to compensate. I'll send you all a voucher for therapy, it's the only decent thing to do.

RowanMumsnet · 30/10/2014 11:34

@BeyondPreparedForHell

Can i ask, is there a different system for PMs, or do they get mixed in with the thread reports? Cause that seemed to be how the "rape" one got around it the other day, a new poster showed up saying people should pm her and she would send details, rather than putting them on the thread.

So i guess many fewer people reported than if it was on the thread, as people only asked for pm details if they were already on the believing side (i cant remember her name sorry).

So with that, do you get a lot of pm reports? If not, perhaps one single report on a pm could go to top of the list, because from what ive seen elsewhere (a different rape related poster getting "i bet you loved it" messages for instance) the pms reported seem to be the most blatent trolling because it is more hidden?

Just to take the thread even more off track!!

yy PM reports come in to the main 'priority' reports stream. We can see if PMs from the same user are being reported multiple times. We can also see the first line of the PM in our reports list, so if it's utterly grim (as in the case you mention) it's pretty obvious.

(PS don't know if you've mailed in but still not quite sure which thread you're referring to - not the PM stuff, the other stuff. We'd like to take a look at what happened so do please tell us here or via email which case it was)

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 30/10/2014 11:28

@ChillingGrinBloodLover

Too late, Chilling. Too late. OH MY EYES

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 30/10/2014 11:26

Tbh there honestly aren't many things about this job that are genuinely really simple. Even flat out PAs ('Fuck off you cunt' stuff) can sometimes be in response to endless inflammatory posting from a troll or someone who needs banning - and having a vol mod delete the PA before the staff can get around to looking at the thread as a whole is liable to massively annoy people. (We know this from bitter experience.)

So one of the things that some reporters might be finding frustrating - the fact that a seemingly simple PA isn't being deleted immediately - is actually the result of our policy of trying to look at the overall situation before making a move. This is itself a policy we arrived at after LOTS of feedback from users!

And access to the back end really is essential - can't really explain why fully without giving too much away, but (for instance) knowing that a 'fuck off you cunt' is actually a cheery greeting between two users who know each other well (and who are posting under namechanges) is very useful sometimes. (That's just one example!)

Don't mean to knock back all your suggestions without considering them - we will certainly have a look at what's happening in the evenings, maybe do some analysis of how long it's taking us to respond to evening reports vs daytime reports, and see whether there's something there that needs to be addressed.

OP posts:
NightOfTheLivingRed · 30/10/2014 11:25

I like an occasional heads up tbh if someone is obviously a troll

Actually, I have to agree with this. I am naive enough to have been totally taken in by some threads which were later clearly identified as troll based.
Some of us don't spot the signs terribly well.

ChillingGrinBloodLover · 30/10/2014 11:24
Halloween Wink
ChillingGrinBloodLover · 30/10/2014 11:24
ChillingGrinBloodLover · 30/10/2014 11:23

being able to see the back end is essential

Halloween Shock

I don't think I ever gave MN permission to see my back end Halloween Shock

WineWineWineWine I fear I may have traumatised many staff at MNHQ over the years Halloween Blush

BeyondPreparedForHell · 30/10/2014 11:22

Can i ask, is there a different system for PMs, or do they get mixed in with the thread reports? Cause that seemed to be how the "rape" one got around it the other day, a new poster showed up saying people should pm her and she would send details, rather than putting them on the thread.

So i guess many fewer people reported than if it was on the thread, as people only asked for pm details if they were already on the believing side (i cant remember her name sorry).

So with that, do you get a lot of pm reports? If not, perhaps one single report on a pm could go to top of the list, because from what ive seen elsewhere (a different rape related poster getting "i bet you loved it" messages for instance) the pms reported seem to be the most blatent trolling because it is more hidden?

Just to take the thread even more off track!!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2014 11:16

because we do look at and evaluate every single report and we think this is an important part of the way we run the site -

Which is very admirable, but do you really think it is working?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2014 11:16

*it's difficult for posters who are well dug in to the community to judge these dispassionately - what if the PA being reported is an attack on one of your mates, for instance: or one of your mates is involved in a right old ding-dong with another poster? Even if the vol mods made a good decision, they'd be open to the accusation of favouring their friends.

And our job also involves lots of access to people's personal data (being able to see the back end is essential), which isn't something we'd be very comfortable sharing with volunteers (and we're guessing lots of MNers wouldn't be comfortable with that either...)*

I think a condition of being a volunteer mod would have to be they couldn't tell anyone :) And I'm sure you could keep an eye on their deletions, maybe store them and give them a once over from time to time.

And they wouldnt need access to any personal info - that is only really needed for trolling/sock puppeting etc. There is a lot of really simple obvious stuff that could be zapped without any need for digging.

because we do look at and evaluate every single report and we think this is an important part of the way we run the site -

RowanMumsnet · 30/10/2014 11:11

@ItsAllGoingToBeFine

Maybe we need to look at that and reshuffle a bit if lots of people feel that evening reports aren't getting responded to

Or set up some email auto responders Grin

In all seriousness I really think you need to consider some sort of automation - it could massively reduce your workload and allow you more time to focus on the trickier reports.

You could further "sort" your report form:
-spam
-troll
-PA
-isms etc

You could also introduce some triggers based on reporting eg

X amount of reports on an OP triggers thread lock and hide

X amounts of reports on thread in general triggers thread lock and hide

X amounts of reports on a poster triggers a warning email and posting suspension.

Another possibility would be more volunteer mods - with the greatest of respect a small team cannot moderate an site this size without some serious changes in how you handle reporting.

We've always resisted auto-responses to reporters (other than for spam reports) because we do look at and evaluate every single report and we think this is an important part of the way we run the site - and sending individual responses (albeit occasionally based on templates) is, we think, one of the things that enables us to have a different sort of relationship with our users.

Reports do already get sorted into a few categories, with boring commercial spam and the like being accorded a lower priority. Reports of trolls, PAs and isms seem to us to be much the same in terms of how urgent they are, so we're not sure that sorting them into categories would help much - and of course not everything necessarily fits into a neat category anyway.

We do have auto-alerts for threads, posts or posters that draw a lot of reports in a short space of time. This is fairly recent but we're finding it useful.

The Night Watch is our experiment in vol mods and so far we think it's working really well. There's a difficulty in allowing vol mods to rule on things like personal attacks because often these are judgement calls and with the best will in the world, it's difficult for posters who are well dug in to the community to judge these dispassionately - what if the PA being reported is an attack on one of your mates, for instance: or one of your mates is involved in a right old ding-dong with another poster? Even if the vol mods made a good decision, they'd be open to the accusation of favouring their friends.

And our job also involves lots of access to people's personal data (being able to see the back end is essential), which isn't something we'd be very comfortable sharing with volunteers (and we're guessing lots of MNers wouldn't be comfortable with that either...)

OP posts:
JustScreamNobHurts · 30/10/2014 11:09

I don't think you need to blame yourselves that much.

It's not your fault that trolls are deliberately taking advantage of time periods they've worked out that moderation maybe thinner on the ground.

It's the TROLLS that need blaming for being horrid trolly gits.

I totally agree with this thread, unless we discuss it, we can't make it better.

Issues with what's worse, troll hunting or trolls, and royalty are subjective and we've had plenty of threads on those subjects and I'm sure we'll have more.

But at the moment the important thing is how we deal with very emotive potentially damaging threads. Some by trolls and some not by trolls, which means finding the balance between sensitivity to the subject, and firmness and fair responses. We don't want to lose sight of that.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/10/2014 11:03

Maybe we need to look at that and reshuffle a bit if lots of people feel that evening reports aren't getting responded to

Or set up some email auto responders Grin

In all seriousness I really think you need to consider some sort of automation - it could massively reduce your workload and allow you more time to focus on the trickier reports.

You could further "sort" your report form:
-spam
-troll
-PA
-isms etc

You could also introduce some triggers based on reporting eg

X amount of reports on an OP triggers thread lock and hide

X amounts of reports on thread in general triggers thread lock and hide

X amounts of reports on a poster triggers a warning email and posting suspension.

Another possibility would be more volunteer mods - with the greatest of respect a small team cannot moderate an site this size without some serious changes in how you handle reporting.