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OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
Momagain1 · 23/10/2014 12:53

The thing is, with no HQ around over night, things don't get dealt with. Genuine posters are hurt at accusations, and real trolls are having a fine old time.

Well, genuine posters wouldnt get hurt at accusations if people werent making accusations, would they?

If you dont beleive, report and dont join in. Because sidetrack arguments about the details and people trying to prove or disprove trolling will drive the post to end up in the most active list, and multiply the audience for the troll (if they are) or multiply the accusations and complicate things for an honest poster.

MsBug · 23/10/2014 12:52

I get why that thread was deleted, but why was the op banned? (assuming that was true)

SleepySuitcaseSheepie · 23/10/2014 12:41

I think it is less likely to be a troll when they have posted 1649 times and then they change names and say something (I mean of course they can be lying but less likely then someone who has posted once.

Problem is with the trolls - when they are joining up just to spam the boards - maybe they can join up and not be able to start their own threads for a couple of weeks - ESP on AIBU? may cut it down as they can't get the instant attention
P

ElliotLovesGrub · 23/10/2014 12:30

The other problem with offering support on these suicide type threads is what happens when the person doesn't get any responses? Will people hold mumsnet responsible in those situations? When someone lonely looks for help, isn't dramatic enough to get the savers interested and then goes off and does something about it?

Doyouthinktheysaurus · 23/10/2014 12:18

MN cannot be held responsible for people's mental health, they just can't.

It should be clearly stated on the mental health topic that it is a peer support forum, nothing more. Peer support can be so beneficial and that absolutely should continue and be encouraged.

The guidelines should also clearly state that suicide note type threads will not be allowed to remain and the user should be emailed with the a list of support contacts.

This needs to be done proactively so that situations like the one with poor Wombat do not arise again. It's extremely sad that she has been called a troll and I'm sure for her that is incredibly hurtful. I'm certain she is real and was in a terribly dark place that night. I do think she made an error in asking for help the way In the way that she did but we all make mistakes. I hope she is getting the help she needs now and at some point feels able to come back to this forum.

Absolute clarity in the guidelines will help prevent this situation arising again.

AlaskaNebraska · 23/10/2014 12:10

Just looked for weeping emoticon. YOU DONT HAVE ONE

AlaskaNebraska · 23/10/2014 12:09

That was using the audio type thing Blush too.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 12:05

@AlaskaNebraska

Oh! Post took so long to type that you've already answered this!
OP posts:
AlaskaNebraska · 23/10/2014 12:01

Oh! Post took so long to type that you've already answered this!

AlaskaNebraska · 23/10/2014 12:00

But you can be over grilled on almost any thread. Sometimes on totally innocuous say, education threads you can be seen as lying purely as you don't want to identify the school or the kid.
You get to the point where you give up asking for opinions as no one believes a word you say and gets obsessed on trivial bits of it

Surely in real life if you were having a conversation like this you would just stop it or on MN stop posting on that thread

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:58

Thank you VSeth Brew

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:56

@FickleByNurture

But what about the normal everyday users who, without wanting to out themselves to friends, colleagues, families and clients will name change, or change subtle details about their lives where it doesn't matter. Example: What about when under one name they have a DDog and the other a DCat? Must it be mandatory for all MNers to always tell the complete truth all of the time in case someone sees a discrepancy in the minutiae and yells troll?

From MNHQ's POV, we distinguish between the kind of thing you describe here (ie changing a few details because you want to post about something intimate or identifying and you don't want it associated with your 'normal' username) and people who seem to change details that are central to their overall account - if that makes sense?

OP posts:
VSeth · 23/10/2014 11:55

I think that you are doing a great job Mumsnet, especially by seeking advice from Samaritans regards Suicide. I really think that they are in a good position to help here.

If we suspect that someone is a Troll or Sock Puppeting then the way to deal with this is to report toMNHQ, rather then round on the OP and other comments/Commenters on the thread.

I was on a thread where the OP was totally genuine and in an awful and suicidal position, people called Troll on the thread and questioned every tiny detail and basically in saying they didn't beleive the OP they were calling her a liar, at a very difficult time. I made the mistake of PM'ing a person doing this who confirmed that yes they didnt beleive the OP yet continued to comment and goad, I of course reported this but next time I wouldn't engage directly and would just report.

Keep up the good work Mumsnet.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:50

@ScreamingSmegs

Long term posters can troll just like new posters. I don't see how knowing whether someone was a long term poster would have helped in the case of, say, TDWP.

I seem to have reached a state of resigned cynicism on MN. Rather sad about it. I wish I could approach each thread in a more positive frame of mind.

Yes. It's very sticky. And the catch-all 'troll' isn't really covering the many possible scenarios. Over the years we've seen some users who have started off absolutely fine nailed-on MNers but have become deeply concerning/inflammatory/inconsistent only after really quite a long period of time.

The resigned cynicism is a shame. The internet is what it is and as we said before, not a single site that we know of has managed to solve this particular problem, unless it's a closed private site that pre-vets members.

That's why our approach is to ask people to only give of themselves what they can afford. If you know that a particular topic is really difficult or costly for you, and you know that a subsequent realisation that someone wasn't genuine is likely to deeply upset you, then you might like to consider giving it a swerve.

OP posts:
FickleByNurture · 23/10/2014 11:48

But what about the normal everyday users who, without wanting to out themselves to friends, colleagues, families and clients will name change, or change subtle details about their lives where it doesn't matter. Example: What about when under one name they have a DDog and the other a DCat? Must it be mandatory for all MNers to always tell the complete truth all of the time in case someone sees a discrepancy in the minutiae and yells troll?

LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 11:43

You used yo be able yo deregister at the touch of a btuuon. now you have to ask permission

PumpkinSizedMammaries · 23/10/2014 11:43

I mean trolls have actively encouraged others to commit suicide on other sites.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 11:43

@InfinitySeven

Rowan Thanks, I must have missed that. It was fast moving!

I'll send you an email with MIND stuff, so you can have a look. It's worth considering, or maybe doing a trial period?

Thanks for reading that, too. I didn't realise it was so long...Wine

No worries and thank you, it's very useful. Please do mail!

OP posts:
PumpkinSizedMammaries · 23/10/2014 11:43

Plus they could get it wrong or trolls could cause all sorts of problems.

ScreamingSmegs · 23/10/2014 11:42

PS I don't call troll. I report. I'd rather report and be wrong than accuse a vulnerable person on a thread.

However I know that if it is a troll many other vulnerable people may have been sucked in and encouraged to expose themselves emotionally, to the detriment of their mental health.

It's a nasty little dilemma.

PumpkinSizedMammaries · 23/10/2014 11:42

It is too much responsibility for MNers to have to talk someone down from committing suicide.

Bettymoody · 23/10/2014 11:42

the best thing about the Judge Flounce reveal was that one of the people on the thread then actually became a judge.

OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters
LEMmingaround · 23/10/2014 11:41

Nevergoohle i totally disagree. They are responsible when part of their forum offers support yet they batton down the hatches when it all goes wrong. So whilst I am totally responsible for my own mental health Thank you very much mnet have put themselves in z position where what is posted on this site can have a devastating effect on peoples well being.

ScreamingSmegs · 23/10/2014 11:40

Long term posters can troll just like new posters. I don't see how knowing whether someone was a long term poster would have helped in the case of, say, TDWP.

I seem to have reached a state of resigned cynicism on MN. Rather sad about it. I wish I could approach each thread in a more positive frame of mind.

AlaskaNebraska · 23/10/2014 11:38

god yes, I didnt realise all the Brazil stuff.