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OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
Maryz · 23/10/2014 16:49

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ElliotLovesGrub · 23/10/2014 16:48

Isn't there somewhere else the suicide threads could be moved to rather than mental health? It's going to make that section harder to use for people who might not want to be thinking about suicide.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 16:46

Gah! Just remembered that Night Watch don't have thread moving powers so please ignore that bit for now. But we will make sure the regular team do this from now on.

OP posts:
Maryz · 23/10/2014 16:45

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Modestine · 23/10/2014 16:45

"x-posted there Rowan - maybe sometimes when people get so hung up on "troll-hunting" you might remind them that there are indeed trolls, and you rely on posters to spot them for you." I think maybe it needs to be clarified - if it's the case - that you rely on posters to spot trolls, but not to take action against them, other than hitting the report button so that MNHQ can deal with them. There seems to be a lot of confusion about what to do when you spot a troll. Or believe you do.

PumpkinSizedMammaries · 23/10/2014 16:44

i don't think the suicide threads should be allowed to stand though, people can post for support but that is something MNers are not equipped to deal with.

WorraLiberty · 23/10/2014 16:42

Would it be impossible (techy wise), to allow everyone just one name change, but the history never gets logged in that NN?

That way we could have one NN for general board usage/chit chat and one for posting anything personal/where we don't want to be identified?

That way posters will become familiar but no-one can nose through their posting history, and there's no need for the constant name changing.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 16:41

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PumpkinSizedMammaries · 23/10/2014 16:41

I'm not sure someone really wanting to commit suicide would bother to post on a forum to talk about it. I think people who do are really just crying out for help and are hoping to be talked out of it.

however I have not been in that position and have no expertise so am willing to be told I am wrong :)

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 16:38

@Maryz

I find it bizarre that an unmoderated board, with no professionals available to support op's and readers of threads, will go against the advice of the provessionals and encourage people to post live suicide threads

We're not encouraging it. We provide a platform, and our members use it. So long as it doesn't break our Guidelines it will stay up. What we're discussing now is whether to change our Guidelines.

@Maryz

Will you at the very least move them to a part of the board every one can hide. And give The NightWatch instructions to move any started at night.

One thing we have to hold our hands up to is that we haven't always been moving these threads to Mental Health, which we promised to do last time we had this discussion. This is absolutely our bad and we will make sure we do this from now on (and ask the Night Watch to do the same).

OP posts:
PumpkinSizedMammaries · 23/10/2014 16:38

I do think some posters have an AMAZING trolldar and MNHQ should take their reports very seriously..if they don't already of course.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 16:38

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 23/10/2014 16:37

I'm also a bit pissed off at the assumption that anyone who doubts any op at all about any detail is a troll-hunter and a bully hmm MNHQ must delete hundreds of threads every week that are posted by trolls, so there is obviously a problem. Why are some posters so adamant that no OP can every be telling a lie/exaggerating/downright making the whole thing up?

Surely the point is that if you doubt the OP you don't post on the thread, you report. I don't think anyone is suggesting that no OP is a lie.

PumpkinSizedMammaries · 23/10/2014 16:37

I am so on the fence about this.

I think troll hunting is not a good idea in general (although I may have done it once or twice as innocent people can be given a hard time when they are actually in a difficult situation (I have namechanged to post for advice and was torn apart as I was suspected to be trolling- it was a strange situation but i wasn't).

However it is frustrating to see people being sucked in by some trolls when it takes a while for them to be deleted.

Or indeed if they are said not to be a troll by MNHQ but later are banned for trolling after causing problems (sometimes to me).

But I can see MNHQ need to have some concrete evidence before banning people and can't just go on a gut feeling like us lot do.

So..basically..I have nothing useful to contribute and am on fence Grin

Bassetfeet · 23/10/2014 16:37

Thanks for answering Rowan . I understand better now your reasons .
We are not so much a village but a large city of resources.

ouryve · 23/10/2014 16:36

I've hit the "Report" button an awful lot, in the past week or so, and don't feel like it's never been worth it. There have been times in the past when something has made me feel very uneasy and MNHQ haven't seen anything obviously untoward, but then it isn't always obvious.

And while I will own up to pointing it out publicly if a person has a really obvious posting history that's all over the Internet, doing exactly the same thing as in their OP and people are seeming to be confused by it (we've had a lot of those in the past week or so) but last night's "what happened to..." thread was truly horrible in tone. It became an example of the worst type of gossip - a question asked, a reply with one person's version of events and then people piling in and building on that one reply.

Suicide note threads really do need to be pulled. The risks for so many people truly outweigh any benefits. I don't doubt that Keema was helped, at her lowest point, but the more recent thread illustrated all the ways in which it can go wrong:

  • people giving out personal info
  • people becoming upset
  • we have no idea how many people didn't post on that thread, but found it highly triggering
  • and then the fall out - the speculation and troll hunting.

And, aside from your average MNer neither having the training nor the access to support necessary to deal with such posts, there really is nothing to stop someone with all the tact and sensitivity of Jimmy Carr piling in and saying something incredibly damaging, just for shits and giggles. of course, anyone who posts something of a personal nature on a public forum opens themselves up to this possibility, but the stakes aren't usually quite so high.

Modestine · 23/10/2014 16:34

Oh, I really like your logic there, Momagain1. Beautiful.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 16:34

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RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 16:29

@ScaryZ

I'm also very saddened by this.

It seems to me that mnhq can say "we have no proof that X is a troll" but they can never say "we have proof x isn't a troll" unless they go and visit x and check her medical history and all the facts of the case, which they are blatantly unable to do.

I'm saddened that this is the one site where they will believe someone, no matter how impossible the story, and how many times the story changes, and how many times the story has been posted, unless they can absolutely categorically prove it to be false - which of course they can never do.

Absolutely categorically proving something to be false isn't the standard - as you say, that would be impossibly high. It's about the balance of probabilities, and any Hmm factors we can see behind the scenes. We can and do ban people on this basis several times a day (and probably more at the moment)

OP posts:
Momagain1 · 23/10/2014 16:28

Yes, all of that is also true, Woooo. But that is their error.

derek mentioned that trolls should be called to save those with a saviour complex from doing stupid things. Though to my mind, assuming responsibility for saving them, is a bit of a saviour complex in itself.

Itsfab · 23/10/2014 16:27

SlimyToad - i think the post so many posts before you can start a thread will be not taken up because of the need for someone to need the help in their own right. Of course that could be got around by posting a few replies on an innocuous thread.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 16:27

@Bassetfeet

I find it a bit difficult to imagine a new person searching for help to access mumsnet as first option . So delaying posting privelege may stop some trolls I think

Well talking v generally Basset (ie not just about people who are feeling suicidal) it's actually the case that a lot of people find MN through searching a particular term and finding that a MN thread is one of the highest and most useful search results. MN is very 'highly indexed' (in SEO terms) and pops up on the front page of all sorts of weird and wonderful search terms. So yes, tbh an awful lot of people will go from 'searching for [chicken coops/bootcut jeans/domestic violence advice] and arrive at MN and be ready to ask a question within minutes. And we'd be reluctant to do something that would effectively turn them away at the door.

OP posts:
Maryz · 23/10/2014 16:26

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RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 16:24

@MrsLettuce

Are MNHQ considering not taking the advice you've sought from the Samaritans et al about suicide threads if it comes into conflict with the opinions of some posters which it's bound to?

TBH I don't think MNHQ should be giving the impression that this sort of policy decision up for discussion. A decision needs to be made and implemented about something where there is no right answer.

We do take your point MrsL but MN has been unusual for a long time in this respect - both that we seek users' views on all sorts of things, and that so far we have usually allowed posts referring to suicide to stand.

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wooooosualsuspect · 23/10/2014 16:22

Weeping over a sad troll thread is feeding the trolls
Telling your own sad stories is feeding the trolls
Pming your phone nos is feeding the trolls
Place marking for the next installment is feeding the trolls.

You have a very naive view of what trolls,troll for.

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