Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
Maryz · 23/10/2014 17:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 17:40

Oh, and I agree, the suicide threads and trolling/sockpuppeting are two separate although sadly sometimes interlinked issues.

needyoumorethanwantyou · 23/10/2014 17:39

I think the suicidal threads should be locked and the OP sent details of where to get help.

As a MH professional I've known quite a few people commit suicide and there really was nothing that anyone could have done to prevent it. I have also been suicidal with depression twice in the past and if all the people in my life couldn't make that better, some people I don't know on the internet certainly never could.

And although I've known a few people who did end their lives, I have known hundreds suggest that they would. And I am not saying it's attention seeking, a lot of people with certain mental health problems experience emotional dysregulation so they can feel desperate and suicidal at one point and very different a few hours later. They're still in distress and I'm not questioning that but I think some of the threads I've seen could fit into that category.

The OP posts and at that time mean what they say but a few hours later it's very different (particularly if they were drunk or had used drugs when they posted). But as they have gone to bed or whatever, there are lots of MNetters shitting themselves because the OP has disappeared.

One of the reasons I left my job as a CPN (in addition to the violence) was because my heart stopped every day that I turned my work mobile on to find a suicidal text or voice mail. 99.9% of the time the person hadn't done anything to harm themselves but I'd feel sick till I got hold of them. MNetters don't know where the disappeared poster is.

And that was my job, I had training and clinical supervision to help me deal with it but it's still horrible to be on the receiving end of it. MNetters don't have the experience or training and I think some of these threads cause an enormous amount of distress and worry.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 17:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

RedButtonhole · 23/10/2014 17:38

Haven't read the full thread, and apologies if this has already been suggested or is just silly, but would it not help to have some sort of indication beside the username on posts of how long a member has been on MN? Not a specific join date, maybe a the username could be in a different colour until the member has been active for six months or something?

Nothing that tied them to their usual name if they had name changed to protect their privacy, just something that lets you see that the poster is in fact a regular member, despite the name being new.

I understand that many genuine users may only sign up because they have an issue they want to post about, and they would still show up as new, but surely it would reduce the amount of suspicion about posters showing up with new names?

There are probably some obvious reasons why it wouldn't work that I have not thought of.

wooooosualsuspect · 23/10/2014 17:38

Oh stop with the 'you don't have to be here' posts.

This thread was started to discuss the site.

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 17:37

Well, her name was not just that of a well-loved marsupial, was it? Confused
Sorry to have put my foot in it.

magi Blush
I can reassure you that I will never stand for anything, ever

I don't know what the 'solution' is for suicide posts, I really don't.

What do the Samaritan's do if somebody phones them and discloses suicide plans?
It's the public arena of the interweb that's the problem.
I always think that if people post here is distress at least they are reaching out and I just take it upon myself to take that as "a call for help" (and I engage or not depending on how much time I have, whether DCs are climbing all over me or not etc). I am under no illusion that anything I say will 'save a life', but otoh sometimes a kind word gives people the impetus to seek RL help.

AND, crucially, I recognise that I happen to not be vulnerable to these threads and they are not triggering to me (not any kind of superiority on my part, just dumb 'luck').

I don't see how suicide threads could ever 'not be allowed' or put in to their own section (how depressing!! Wink).

I dunno.

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 17:37

Please folks, let's keep in general . We're going to delete some of the more recent posts as we really don't want this to descend into a dissection of any particular thread or poster.

OP posts:
JustScreamNobHurts · 23/10/2014 17:34

Yes lots of posters were, but not Maryz.

ScaryZ · 23/10/2014 17:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JustScreamNobHurts · 23/10/2014 17:33

Allhallows?

What's your point?

MNHQ want feedback, this is a discussion thread for the site.

It's kinda how this place works.

stickymousemat · 23/10/2014 17:33

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

EatDereksCorpse · 23/10/2014 17:33

NOB This fucking phone just guess even though I've typed a proper actual word!

Allhallowspeeve · 23/10/2014 17:31

Wow this thread is batshit crazy !

honestly ladies you really don't have to be here if you don't like it. No one is forcing you.
Madness!

JustScreamNobHurts · 23/10/2014 17:30

Beau trap Grin

Is that how you get dates now Dezza?

EatDereksCorpse · 23/10/2014 17:29

Neutral**

EatDereksCorpse · 23/10/2014 17:29

More people are using Wombats name and their posts are staying! Mine had no reference to a certain thread yet got deleted!

So your post only stays if you mention you believed her?!

Thought it was meant to be a beau trap conversation Hmm

Momagain1 · 23/10/2014 17:27

MaryZ, i reported it. Even that night I saw save the saviour posts, which are good advice, but imply the OP can't be trusted/is a troll. Checked back in the next day to see lots of posts discussion about doubts, as you said, it had deteriorated. Perhaps the word troll was never actually used, but i got the implication that people now disbelieved the OP and were arguing about it amongst themselves. And then it was closed, and various TAATs openly discussed the number of people who had mistrusted it all along, it so was unbelievable, or how terrible were the numbers of posts challenging Wombats story.

There have been numbers of threads where i have scrolled past 'reported' posts and follow up comments arguing about the OPs details and phrasing. Again, the word troll might not actually be used, but, if the OP was sincere, that stuff is, at the very least, going toward bullying. And if the OP werent sincere, they are gleeful at having successfully trolled posters into arguing and giving them many hits and accomplishing Active thread status.

I agree with you about seeking out the posts that fall off the radar, I have begun regularly reading the Last 15 Minutes and Unanswered Messages listings. I am still somewhat new to this particular forum (keep looking for the upvote arrow) and being number response number 457 seems unnecessary.

magimedi · 23/10/2014 17:27

Pacific - as ever you speak really good sense. (I'd vote for you if you were standing for anything!).

I'd be very interested to hear what you think should be done with suicide posts.

JustScreamNobHurts · 23/10/2014 17:26

No sticky

Maryz was one of the posters being very careful NOT to call troll on Sangrias thread, and was then annoyed at the deletion message for that thread.

I'm sure Rowan can validate than many posters were trying NOT to refer by name to Wombat. Others didn't on both sides of the issue that was being raised.

This is the problem with Troll Hunter hunting, Chinese whispers and sending out the wrong impression of posters.

stickymousemat · 23/10/2014 17:22

and sorry if you have to delete any of that MN but it was bugging me!

stickymousemat · 23/10/2014 17:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 17:19

Coming late to this and have just worked my way through 11 pages

Rowan, thank you for organising this thread - I had to sit on my hands to not post on the multiple other ones.

Fwiw, I was under the impression that wombat was genuine and I hope that she is getting the help she needs and is getting better.

If, if, it turned out that she was not all she seemed to be, I am in the lucky position that it would not harm me in any way and other than mild annoyance and feeling stupid at being sucked in, I'd be fine.

I like the fact that MN is 'lightly moderated' and I do agree with the statement that 'MN is not compulsory'. Of course there are going to be trolls (what on earth motivates them I really don't get, but never mind) and nasty vampiric trolls. Just like there are going to be very vulnerable posters - the damage done to somebody who has experiences suicidal thoughts by a triggering OP is just as serious whether the author of the OP post as a genuine person in need or as a troll.

I think we are all well advised to remember to 'not give more than you can afford to' - in terms of time, nervous energy, advice and personal stories. I share some personal stuff because I am happy to share it in RL too (happy to talk about my MCs for instance) and other stuff I don't post about because it IS too private (or would breach my loved ones privacy and they have not 'allowed' me to post about them here).

I dunno.
I don't envy MNHQ their job.
I don't think that troll are taking over the asylum and for me the pros of MN still outweigh the cons.

I think it is fair enough to ask an OP to clarify something without being called troll hunter, but I agree with MNHQ that we all need to report and walk away from the thread if it gets too frustrating or upsetting.

EatDereksCorpse · 23/10/2014 17:18

Threads like that can harm genuine people. They can bring back memories or even tip people over the edge.

They shouldn't be allowed to run on. Links to RL help then locking or deleting is what should happen.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 17:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.