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OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
FrontForward · 23/10/2014 17:56

Derek that is obviously an extreme example and yes horrific.

However the vast majority are irritating and to me inexplicable as I don't really understand the motivation to troll.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 17:56

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EatDereksCorpse · 23/10/2014 17:56

If you have attempted suicide then a forum can't help you. You need RL help! It's nothing to do with MH shaming and all to do with common sense.

When my mum attempted it the last thing she needed was some people on Mn posting flowers and PM's. She needed the Mental Health team and needed sectioning.

SnowyMouse · 23/10/2014 17:55

Someone asked what the Samaritans would do.

"we respect your freedom to make your own decisions, including the decision to take your own life. We’ll continue to talk with you if you’ve taken action to end your life.
Will you tell anybody I’m suicidal?

We won’t ever tell anyone about our conversation, or even that you called, unless you ask us to. We won't call emergency services, except for in these circumstances:

You ask us to, and you’re unable to call for yourself
You’ve already told us your address, location or phone number, and then become incoherent or unconscious during the call
You’re in one of our branches, and you’ve harmed yourself in a way that puts you in danger at that time."

from here

Modestine · 23/10/2014 17:54

OMG Jesus was a troll! Really?

TeaAndALemonTart · 23/10/2014 17:54

Jesus who? Not InTheCabbageVan? I liked her.

Wink
RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 17:54

@WorraLiberty

Yesterday a poster name changed just to start a TAAT...and a pretty nasty one at that, taking the pee out of another poster's thread.

All the deletion message said was it was a TAAT, but what I'd like to know is, was the person banned for abusing the name change function and taking the pee out of the original poster?

If you can take a firmer stand on the cowardly name changers who simply want to cause trouble, it might cut down on the trolling.

OK we think we've found this one now Worra and yes he was immediately banned.

OP posts:
Maryz · 23/10/2014 17:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheOrchardKeeper · 23/10/2014 17:53

It's all getting a little MH-shaming. People post about other very distressing things (stillbirths, misscarriages, cancer etc) and no one would ask them not to or ridicule them for posting on MN instead of having rl support etc. But that's what I've read a lot of, MNHQ.

The suicide threats are different but people keep mentioning how MN isn't a MH support network. No, it isn't. But there are threads and posters who do support each other and there is NOTHING wrong with that. No different to the general health board.

It's been very upsetting to hear how many people think it's wrong for people to use MN as a source of support. Some of us haven't got many other options. And, as the last few days on here have shown, misunderstanding, prejudice and ridicule towards MH is still rife...

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 17:52

Grin Paggy

I believe Jesus was a RL historical person, but I don't believe he was the son of god. Makes him a troll in my book.

EatDereksCorpse · 23/10/2014 17:52

I don't think I can recall a single troll thread that has upset me. I wonder how much some posters have invested in MN that it affects them so much

The troll who took over my name and posted that my son had died upset me and a lot of posters. Nothing to do with been invested too much in Mn.

Some subjects get to people.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 17:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pagwatch · 23/10/2014 17:51

I don't believe Jesus was a troll.

EatDereksCorpse · 23/10/2014 17:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TheViolentHour · 23/10/2014 17:50

I agree with various posters that this issue is about more than one thread and more than whether one specific poster was truthful or not. Trollhunting is only one of several worries with threads of this nature

FrontForward · 23/10/2014 17:50

Trolling. Sometimes I think the troll hunting is more of an issue than the trolling. Put the effort into reporting it.

I have seen people being accused of trolling when they are describing a really complex difficult situation. The inquisition and demanding to know the answers then nit picking over those answers is painful. It's not support and generally support is being sought. I have seen MN come onto the thread and say we have no reason to disbelieve so quit hunting. It's pretty arrogant to think that because you don't believe something it therefore cannot be true. Yet that continues.

I can remember someone describing a situation that I too had experienced and being torn apart because it was so 'unbelievable'. How lovely to have such limited experience in life that you can't believe alternative experiences.

I don't think I can recall a single troll thread that has upset me. I wonder how much some posters have invested in MN that it affects them so much. Just don't post, don't read...there are plenty of other threads..it's bollocks to suggest you are protecting other spotters and upset for them. They are adults and it's hardly a war zone

Suicide...I agree that letting posts stand is dangerous for triggering other posters and dangerous because there is no control over the responses. However withdrawing all help seems grim...I agree with locking, shifting and directing/linking to trained help....even if that meant Samaritans training up volunteers to post on here

Regards post counts. Instead of exact counts what about coding a beginner...to prolific get a life kinda poster?

MrsLettuce · 23/10/2014 17:49

We've had the discussion several times MrsLettuce and as far as we know we've implemented the policies we came up with at the time.

One of the problems is there is absolutely no consensus, among posters, about how these threads should be dealt with. Many MNers feel VERY strongly that genuine users who feel suicidal should be able to use MN as a source of support and help. Others feel VERY strongly that they should not.

I know Rowan, but, TBH I've seen enough rounds of this exact same 'policy crisis' in the 7 or 8 years I've been here to start to think that, maybe, just, maybe, MNHQ don't actually want or intend to make any sort of clear policy decision WRT suicide threads but just want all sides of the argument to feel heard.

Whatever is decided people will be upset, there is very rarely consensus and always a fuck load of whingeing over anything MNHQ do. But, MNHQ are the parents here, as it were, and are surely aware that not making a decision is also a decision.

I think it's time HQ 'personed up', made a decision and owned that decision, even if that is a wooly 'we'll just carry on as we always have done thankyouverymuch'.

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 17:49

'Twas needyou's idea - credit were credit is due Smile

Allhallowspeeve · 23/10/2014 17:48

tea I nearly always fall them but I never invest myself so much that I come away hurt.

Allhallowspeeve · 23/10/2014 17:46

pacific that's sounds like a good move.

TeaAndALemonTart · 23/10/2014 17:45

I like an occasional heads up tbh if someone is obviously a troll. Halloween Grin

Allhallowspeeve · 23/10/2014 17:45

Toys thrown out of the pram now ! Jesus!

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 17:44

needyou, x-posted with you; I think I agree with you.
Maybe it would be best to lock the thread with some signposting to RL resources for help.

The 'successful' suicides I had dealings with have fallen in to 3 categories: 'calls for help' accidentally leading to death, very severely depressed people with very intensive input from all sorts of agencies still finding a way to do it, or very sudden serious self-harm/self-imposed death without any apparent warning at all.
I don't think that many of these individuals post on an internet site first - maybe the first group or previous fleeting feelings of 'not wanting to feel this bad any more' rather than actively 'wanting to be dead' if that makes any sense at all?

Allhallowspeeve · 23/10/2014 17:43

It has been discussed and feed back has been given.

The jist is if you suspect it's a troll- report. It's that simple. People don't need to go in all guns blazing trying to dig out suspected trolls. They might actually not be.

MNHQ normally get round to doing the right thing regards to deleting or letting it stay. If it stays and you can't bare it - just stay away from the thread- take a step back.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 17:43

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.