OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

It could quite a heavy burden to put on somebody else who just come to MN for a bit of fun, or light relief, or advice.

So can threads about bereavement or domestic violence or rape.

That is a great post NeedYou.

It is an unpalatable, sad truth that if someone chooses to take their life they will. We are creating an illusion of control - if we do x that will help, if we stop y that may'.
We are impotent really and pretending we can help is misguided.
We are worrying about the poster whose actions are unlikely to be affected by us yet those reading the thread may experience echos of their own traumatic times around this topic.

It's unsurprising it is such a fraught topic. I don't know what the answer is
[not at all helpful]

So for those who say calling troll on a thread is unproductive, how many of you have been here for the known, damaging troll outings?

It’s one thing to say “report and move on,” but the reality is that many of the most prolific trolls on mn were reported time after time after time for weeks on end and it was only when someone has dared to speak out on a thread that something has finally been done and a mass of other posters have admitted that they too were suspicious and had reported.

Dizzymare was posting here for months before she was outed. She was reported numerous times but mn hq were powerless to do anything and admitted they’d had several reports but were powerless to act. So she went through becoming pregnant, finding out it was twins while befriending other parents who had lost babies, many of them twins themselves and befriending them off board. She lost her babies and wailed incoherently on a thread overnight which received hundreds and hundreds of posts. And people reported because her story was inconsistent – dramatically inconsistent. It was only when someone posted a thread saying “look, it’s clear people are becoming heavily invested in an emotive thread but bear in mind that this poster may not be all she seems,” that people started to voice their own suspicions publically and mn hq were finally forced to act. And fwiw dizzymare was publically outed several months later on another bereavement forum after it transpired the pictures of her dead babies had been lifted from the internet.

Ethanchristopher who was supposedly a young teenage mum had befriended other young mums off board and was arranging to meet up. Again, people reported and reported and reported and it was only when someone challenged her on a thread she finally admitted she was a lier and had made up her story. For all we know she could have been a predator trying to lure in young vulnerable teenage mums....

Apparently the unmasking of judge flounce was done publically (this was before my time but he/she was legend when I first joined mn).

TDWP was actually being reported for years before she was finally banned.

I could go on but tbh the list is endless. But suffice to say that all of the high profile trolls have been outed due to someone daring to speak out on a public thread, not due to reporting.

The thing is that these days the trolls we consider high profile generally only have a thread which runs for a few days, so a public outing seems a bit brutal when a thread has only run for a short-ish period of time. But it wasn’t that long ago that trolls became well known on mn before being outed.

There needs to be middle ground IMO. I’m not a believer in leaping on to a thread and yelling “troll!” but equally I don’t think there’s necessarily an issue in someone coming on to thread and saying “hang on a minute, yesterday you posted x, now you’ve contradicted it with y, and actually it’s not possible to have happened like that because of z and perhaps posters should be a bit careful and remember that not everyone on the internet is who they seem.

*needing support

It could quite a heavy burden to put on somebody else who just come to MN for a bit of fun, or light relief, or advice.

You dont just walk into a random crowd and tell them you are going to hang yourself, and expect them to sit down with you, hold your hand, give you a mug of tea and let you ramble on for hours. They would most likely advice you to call Samaritans, see a GP, or if you are lucky put you in a cab to A&E. Why? Because they dont know you from Adam, and they dont necessarily know how best to treat you. Why expect MN to be any different than a random crowd?

maryz has posted twice about a long term poster on another site who created a persona and situations for years but was a troll, so what would be the point of putting the number of posts or how long someone had been a member next to their name?
I think some people try to prove themselves right when they spot someone they think is a troll, so keep repeating it or making sarky remarks on the thread. I think it's ok to ask question to clarify something dodgy, but the thread should be reported and then just move on.
Threads from posters needed support should be allowed to stand, but "suicide notes" or direct threats of killing themselves now should refer to professionals and be locked.

Quint

Becaue people keep suggesting just leaving MN alone and calling Samaritans etc. We all know they exist. If we post here we've likely chosen not to call them and don't want to. But lots of posters seem to think that they are the 'best' option. They aren't for some. Lots would agree and have agreed.

I'm worried that if someone who is suicidal has one bit of hope and reaches out for help, having that thread moved or deleted could feel like a rejection, or a sign that they should not be helped. Whatever was done would have to be done very carefully, not very helpful I know .

MNHQ, just to be clear - are we talking here about posters threatening to commit suicide there and then, so to speak, rather than those with suicidal feelings but with no immediate threats?

We do take your point MrsL but MN has been unusual for a long time in this respect - both that we seek users' views on all sorts of things, and that so far we have usually allowed posts referring to suicide to stand.

But maybe being unusual in this instance isn't the right decision. Certain topics need heavier moderation than others and some need active management.

I think that for possible trolls, threads could be locked down once a number of reports are received, while HQ investigate. Then once HQ have decided that it is a troll, the thread remains locked and the trolls posts are coloured some vile colour. If it isn't a troll then a message is posted and the thread is unlocked.

I do think troll posts should remain up for everyone to see. It is more likely that posters can be 'protected' if they can see for themselves that a particular poster is doing what they always do, or that the style is the same as a troll etc.

If someone's always a tit, isn't it better that everyone knows they're a tit?

"Again, it feels like lots of people who haven't experienced a MH crisis themselves (either directly or through a loved one) are telling lots of us who have how to best deal with a crisis."

Not sure where you are getting that. Not even sure your sentence make much sense... In what way can you deal with somebody elses crisis, when you dont know them, their situation, where they are, etc, that is beyond me.

I have more experience with mental health related shit than I would like to have, and it is because of that I dont feel able to read (or adequately respond to) suicide threads.

I avoid suicide threads, but the title one the other night sounded like your average Flounce.

The thing is, we've all heard of stories where someone was suicidal and someone asked if they were ok when they were crying outside Sainsburys or they posted on a forum and somebody replied and it changed their mind. And I'm not saying that's untrue because I don't know. But in over 15 years of working in MH I've never met a service user who told me they were genuinely going to kill themselves and some random seemingly insignificant event 'saved' them. Again, I'm not saying it never happens as I can't state that but I've known a lot of people in mental distress and I've never heard that kind of 'hallmark card' story.

But I've known people that committed suicide who had love, children, whatever else positive going on in their lives and none of that mattered because depression is an irrational and deeply painful condition. They didn't tell anyone they were going to do it because they had their minds made up.

There just may be one poster who is 'saved' by MN but I don't think the slim chance of that should cancel out the fact that a lot of seemingly suicidal posters will really not be genuine or have no real intent outside of that moment in time but are; through the expression of their distress, deeply distressing and worrying a lot of people.

A lot of people with certain mental health problems are in distress and desperately want someone or many people to acknowledge that. And often, expressing suicidal intent feeds that need. People saying don't do it, we care, I bet you're lovely, your children need you etc are all lovely to say but for some people is counterproductive because it meets the need for a while until the next time and then they have to more desperate, more suicidal to get what they need.

On MN we don't know who is in desperate need or who is actually being made 'worse' by the responses they get.

You can hide the MH topic.

And most threads are obvious when they're about severe MH. I managed to only read the first post of them and guess it wasn't what I wanted to see for the last year...can't others do the same (to the one's that are severe but not actual live suicides)? No one forces people to read to the end of threads!

as there seems to be a serious case of chinese whispers, can i clear something up please?

Sangria was not the OP of the thread deleted in sitestuff, i was, and i'd like to repost my original OP, so people can please stop accusing me of being a bully.

My post wasn't about calling wombat a troll, it was about asking if there was something the posters or MNHQ could do to prevent people from sharing personal info to the OP of a questionable thread if it was of a sensitive nature.

"SplatTheScaryCat Mon 20-Oct-14 20:02:25
Is there someway we can have a proviso put on the 'no troll hunting' rule, so we can actually say, on say... a very sensitive thread, something worded carefully and nicely such as

i have a feeling this isn't quite what it seems, can people please be careful about sharing personal stories or sending pms with their phone numbers and details.

i appreciate that without really good evidence that MNHQ have to err on the side of allowing a thread to stay, but leaving some very sensitive threads there when its obvious they're not real or an OP stringing people along is damaging and possibly even triggering to other emotionally and mentally vulnerable posters.

i am really, really uncomfortable with the idea that some threads that have questionable authenticity are allowed to stand and be left for emotional vampires, ghouls and place marking rubber-neckers to cry and emote all over while genuinely vulnerable posters are sucked in without any forewarning that all might not be what it seems.

Of course this site is for support, but in leaving those kind of threads there, we're failing to support the people genuinely in need.

And if we can't, can MNHQ post it? i know you do something similar on begging threads, but can you perhaps please post a sensitive 'be careful' warning on mental health 'cry for help' threads too please after they get a certain amount of 'we dont believe this one' posts? Please?"

Now, will people stop calling us bullies. TYVM!

That's what I mean, Quint

I think I waffle too much.

A Samaritan has training, and will be much better equipped to deal with a suicidal person that your average mumsnetter, who may just start fretting

They aren't a magic solution. Unlike some posters on MN, who are willing to give advice/help and may have been there themselves, The Sam's can only talk. No advice is allowed. I felt more suicidal after talking to them, as my GP told me to just call them if I felt very bad but I just told someone my issues at the time and that was that.

Again, it feels like lots of people who haven't experienced a MH crisis themselves (either directly or through a loved one) are telling lots of us who have how to best deal with a crisis.

Could they be moved to a "severe mental health topic", which some of us could chose to hide?

I'm sure HQ could implement a policy that all suicidal threads immediately be moved ? No matter when ?

Seems to be plenty of posters who adore the report button, not necessarily for the right reasons.

The SN boards and Off The Beaten track work - the former because they are mainly inhabited by a close band of sisters who know where to find each other, and the other because people seek out just because it's off the beaten track.
I don't think that approach would work for suicide threads.

Maybe they could stay in chat or wherever they were posted but be marked in some way so that people know what they might be clicking on? The one the other night, I would have avoided clicking had it not been a thread title that could have been any number of things to do with goodbye. People like me could avoid and people who like helping or don't get upset by it could do so.