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OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
Allhallowspeeve · 23/10/2014 19:23

Also it's not up to you to protect other posters. Leave that to the site owners and moderators.

QuintessentiallyGhoulish · 23/10/2014 19:18

At the end of the day, it was not MN that helped the poster on the thread the other day, she got on with it. Her husband found her. So nobody really did any good, and I realize that may be controversial but I agree with Wannabee that there is a chance that real life help i not sought.

Allhallowspeeve · 23/10/2014 19:18

maryz I have personal experience with suiside. If you search my past comments on other threads you will see that true. My mother. Hanging was her personal favourite choice of way out. Never succeeded though . I'm NC with her. So with even those experience I can still show empathy to other posters that may or may not be going through that.
You don't have to over invest yourself report if you think something is suspect.

WannaBe · 23/10/2014 19:14

well, I was recognised in a shop once so I guess that means I can't be a troll. Grin

As an aside, and I realise this may be somewhat emotive, there is a lot of talk on here from people who say they absolutely needed the support from mn in their time of crisis. The thing is, sometimes that support can be what stops the person from accessing genuine help, and when you aren't ready to access help but are still feeling desperate, it can be easier to cling to your comfort zone of the online world than it can be to step out into the real world and seek real help.

I know someone currently who is receiving serious psychiatric treatment as an in patient. And one of the things which has been considered most damaging and most destructive to her recovery is her online communication, even though as an outsider you would never know that. As such she has had all access to the online, essentially the outside world withdrawn. She cannot access the internet in any way shape or form. she is currently not able to have a mobile phone, she cannot have access to social media or online forums, she currently can't even receive letters. she cannot communicate with anyone atm other than those who are able to visit her. And yet two days prior to this all becoming public knowledge to her friends she was on social media writing happily, being open and honest about the fact she is ill and will be receiving treatment, no-one knew how serious it was until her fb friends were informed she firstly couldn't have her mobile and then that she couldn't receive any post at all.

The thing is that none of us are qualified to judge what state a poster is in. the way someone writes is no indication - this is the internet, people can write in all manner of ways, read and re-read a post and make sure it fits with how they want it to look, and to the onlooker it appears the op wrote out a thread in haste and is in genuine distress. Or someone could be cheerful and helpful and lovely on here and go home and kill themselves tomorrow. It's just not possible to know, and it's just not possible to be in a place where you can know you're giving the right support. And no, "hugs," or "bump," or "just checking in," really isn't "the right support" for someone writing a suicide note and publishing it in chat.

temporaryusername · 23/10/2014 19:08

Oh good, just checking, as personally I haven't witnessed any of the other kind quite relieved that I haven't.

ScaryZ · 23/10/2014 19:06

There are lots of threads from people who are feeling very low, and even suicidal.

I haven't seen people call for them to be moved or deleted, their op's aren't called names, they get lots of support.

That's the whole point - it's not those types of threads we are talking about.

temporaryusername · 23/10/2014 19:02

Most people would appreciate that if something is due to a general policy then it is not a personal rejection or a 'sign' of anything, but a very depressed person with distorted thinking may not be able to appreciate it at that moment.

There probably is a better way to deal with immediate threat type suicide threads, but I think it is really important that people who are generally low and admit they have thoughts of suicide or just say 'I shouldn't be here' are not moved or deleted. If that were the case the MH section would be quite compromised, which would be a shame. I agree MN is not going to stop anyone determined to kill themselves imminently, but many people who admit to thinking about suicide/mention the idea in a thread that is largely about ongoing depression (rather than suicide itself) are in a different position and could benefit from the support.

I think where someone threatening suicide is suspected of being a troll, it could be really dangerous for random users to wade in with accusations. It would surely be better to stick to reporting to HQ even if it takes till morning.

Takingthemickey · 23/10/2014 19:01

As for troll hunting, maybe if we redefined trolls and stopped calling out people as goady or trolls if they dare to post an unpopular (on mumsnet) opinion, it would be less of a constant word.

Agree with this. MN also has clear rules on troll hunting which is report don't hunt.

TheBogQueen · 23/10/2014 19:01

whenever someone posts a threat of imminent suicide, the thread should be deleted immediately. It is utterly irresponsible to allow such threads to continue.

This. Absolutely. And an email telling them to call 999/111.

Mumsnet is not the fourth emergency service. It is not a safe alternative to that person speaking to trained professionals.

TheOrchardKeeper · 23/10/2014 19:00

No one posting about feeling suicidal is expecting people after lighthearted kniting threads to reply are they. I avoid certain threads (can't handle rape ones or DV as it's too close to home) but no one would dream of discussing them like we're discussing the MH ones.

Which is basically what Keema said but I'm just parroting.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 18:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wooobatsandghouls · 23/10/2014 18:57

I accept what you're saying WannaBe, and I haven't been here that long. I've seen threads that I don't believe for a minute, a couple of them quite sensitive and I have been amazed that some posters seem to believe every word. I'm not saying don't call troll, but what is the point of a poster repeating it over and over, or making repeated sarcastic comments Confused Some people will believe anything and won't thank you for pointing out that they're being suckered. Let them get on with it

SouthernComforts · 23/10/2014 18:57

I think MNHQ are stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Yes this site provides amazing support at times but it is just a chat site when all said and done.

I personally don't think it should be used a a lifeline (literally) for vulnerable people.

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 18:56

X-post, Pags Grin - great minds!

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 18:56

That MaryZ is a troll btw

I think you are both right - there are certain posters I think we all 'know' and believe to be genuine even if the have never met them in RL.
And to successfully troll a site over a period of time you have to know it really well. (Just as an aside: who could be bothered to believe their own narrative if it's all made up?!)

Pagwatch · 23/10/2014 18:55

If Jesus was a troll I bet he would use familiar, easy to remember names.
< coughMaryzcough>

QuintessentiallyGhoulish · 23/10/2014 18:52

That is very kind of you Maryz Blush But the point is that to Troll a site, I think you need to know it. Does that make sense?

Maryz · 23/10/2014 18:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Nerf · 23/10/2014 18:47

What's needed is a clear visible policy on everything, devised with support from professionals and then quick, consistent implementation of it.
Bit like raising children. I tell my kids what the rules are but if I don't follow through they start doing their own thing.
Then if you don't like it you can choose to leave.
Fwiw I think suicide threads are appalling and attract either vulnerable people or those wanting to be the special one that saves the OP. Like other dramatic threads people get overexcited and try to demonstrate their help.
As for troll hunting, maybe if we redefined trolls and stopped calling out people as goady or trolls if they dare to post an unpopular (on mumsnet) opinion, it would be less of a constant word.
I don't think mumsnet has a reputation externally as particularly supportive - media and others seem to view us as a bunch of bitches tbh! So I don't think a policy on locking or deleting suicide threads would have much impact.

MrsVamoOOOOOOOOOOs · 23/10/2014 18:46

Good post also, Pagwatch.

I know all too well that offers of help have to be wanted, people have to want to help themselves.

If they are hellbent on a particular path, nothing will help them.

Perhaps its too difficult a topic to moderate.

I clearly have no idea what the answer is. Sad

QuintessentiallyGhoulish · 23/10/2014 18:46

Yes Keema, they can.

Personally I feel strong enough to handle a dv thread than a suicide thread. The latter hits closer to home. Which is why I personally stay away, and would like not to have to realize I am reading one. But that is about protecting my preference, not helping another person. Not sure how the two of them can be combined.

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 18:46

Surely the fact that very serious threads about all sorts of sad and/or distressing subjects exist side by side with more lighthearted stuff is part of the appeal of a forum like MN, no?

I do think we owe ourselves to be responsible about what we get in to I run screaming from most S&B threads as I have no clue

The Serenity Prayer comes to mind...

Maryz · 23/10/2014 18:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QuintessentiallyGhoulish · 23/10/2014 18:43

I have been here 8 years. I have seen the unmasking of numerous trolls. I have seen many suicide threads. I have seen the cycles of "why are there so many trolls" etc.

I could be a troll. I could be a sock puppet. (I am not though, but hypothetically I could) I could have a totally different identity posting alongside the many variations of Quint.

Anyone of us could be trolls. Having been here a long time is no reason to think we are not trolls. On the contrary. There is no reason to think a Troll pops out of nowhere and suddenly decide to come to MN to Troll, or NM for that matter. If I were to troll a website, I would know what boxes to tick on MN, I would not know how to troll Bounty, or NM! I would know very well how to Troll on here!

Different discussion to how to handle actual real suicide threads though.

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 18:41

It is an unpalatable, sad truth that if someone chooses to take their life they will

Yes, this - entirely agree.

But I also see how locking or moving a thread could feel like rejection to a vulnerable poster as temporaryusername says.

Confused