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OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
Maryz · 23/10/2014 20:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Pagwatch · 23/10/2014 20:00

Another excellent post Needyou.

Really helpful.

ArkhamOffett · 23/10/2014 19:58

MNHQ, can you put needyou on a retainer in some capacity?

She knows her shit.

Pagwatch · 23/10/2014 19:58

Yeah, I know what you mean Splat.

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 19:57

needyou Thanks
You are a loss to your profession.

Itsfab · 23/10/2014 19:57

See how things get off topic? A comment about Jesus read wrong and then someone else adds to it and now people are saying Jesus was a wanking troll. Confused.

SplatTheScaryCat · 23/10/2014 19:56

oh i know, but in all honesty, i don't think we'll be listened to again, i think this another exercise in placating us into just shutting up and going away, again.

It seems to be a perpetual pattern. We get these threads, promises are made, and nothing happens.

needyoumorethanwantyou · 23/10/2014 19:55

Thank you to those of you liking my posts Smile I was apprehensive about posting about this subject because sometimes see negative posts on here about MH professionals being useless or not caring and in my case (and in most cases) that is not the case at all.

I don't post on suicidal threads because I have too much knowledge about the subject. If it's a 'feeling suicidal, can it get better?' post then I will. Because I've worked with it and I've lived it. Even with all my knowledge and experience, when it happened to me I just didn't believe it would get better so to me, it's important to share that truth from my personal experience- that it CAN get better.

I don't post on actively suicidal threads because after so many years experience I think 99.9 % of the threads I've seen fall into a few categories.

One very small group will kill themselves (and it would be unusual to tell an internet forum that) and nothing ANYONE says will change that.

Another much bigger group are people in a lot of pain. They don't want to endure that pain anymore, they don't want to be themselves living their lives anymore. They don't want to do 'this' anymore or be 'here' but deep down they don't want to die so they're looking for an 'out' from that, a 'saviour'. For those people, the saviour could be a song, a smile, a few words from a stranger on MN. If there weren't people on MN saying 'don't do it!' the saviour would be found elsewhere because those people don't really want to die, they want someone or anyone- something or anything to see how much pain they are in and stop them because they don't really want to do it. For some people, they only need that 'reason not to die' (because deep down, they didn't want to) just once in their lives because their husband has left them or they're bereaved or whatever. For some people, they need this 'saviour' a few times in their lives during horrible times. Some people need it much more often.

Another category are what we call trolls who just like causing pain and worry and enjoy that. Some though are trolls who do have problems in their lives or personality disorders who aren't malicious (as in they don't enjoy the worry or pain they cause) but their lives are so sad and empty that they love the attention and care they receive on here that they disregard the feelings of others or how they make other people feel.

So what I'm saying is, MN will not save anyone that really wants to die. It may 'save' those who are looking for a savior but without MN, those people will be 'saved' by something else - because they want to be saved.

For the other people, having MNetters want them to stay alive will be part of a game or feeding a need and isn't really making them 'better' and that process may be really distressing MNetters who care and who feel a natural human need/want to help people.

SnowyMouse · 23/10/2014 19:54

I thought it was about specific suicide threats, not self-harm.

Pagwatch · 23/10/2014 19:51

Splat
That may well be true. My point was that repeatedly posting 'leave it to mnhq' when mnhq are saying 'we don't know , what do you lot think' is not really helpful.

TheBogQueen · 23/10/2014 19:49

I thought thus was about very specific situation: poster on thread saying they have/are/about to self harm/commit suicide.

Interactions with people who are experiencing such extreme symptoms of mental ill-health need to be handled by people with training who can find out where that person is, judge whether they are at risk, and have obtained the necessary info to send police/ambulance.

SplatTheScaryCat · 23/10/2014 19:48

i dont think our input really matters, we're not MH professionals.

personally i think the only people MNHQ should take advice from are Samaritains and MIND and that those guidelines should be strictly adhered to.

I also think MNHQ need to still to previous promise to move threads that ought to be in mental health TO mental health.

The only thing that perhaps should be changed, is maybe creating a "Mental Health Peer Support" forum for those "i need support" threads to be moved in to, so those posting in MH for general advice dont have to be faced with the needy threads that might be upsetting for them.

TheOrchardKeeper · 23/10/2014 19:48

Pacific that's hit the nail on the head though Smile

PacificDogwood · 23/10/2014 19:46

But this is the thing: we are all individuals with different personalities (ranging from v vulnerable to tough as shoe leather) and different back stories (which may or may include personal/family/social circle experience of abuse/DV/suicide/bereavement/rape/etc etc).

Different things are going to be triggering to different people.
Different posters will have different mechanisms and capacity for self-protection (some people deeply traumatised by, say, rape will actively seek out sexual assault threads while other will avoid them like the plague).
The same is true in RL IME.

MNHQ and any other internet forum cannot cater to everybody's needs and make allowances for everybody's weaknesses.
If it comes down to protecting "everybody" then we can really only post about kittens or something.

I'd not like that. At all.

If we could remember to err on the side of kindness, not say/post anything if we cannot think of anything supportive to say, report suspected trolls, , then it would all work just fine.

I know. I am naive. Utopia.

TheOrchardKeeper · 23/10/2014 19:42

Seconding Keema. I was allowed to use the internet in the computer room once a day then eventually on my phone. So were most of the other patients. They said it can help to reduce anxiety about others wondering why you've dropped off the gace of the earth and to keep in contact with people without ringing/to post in any forums you're on (though they are allowed to read if they're concerned it's a pro-suicide site or anything like that).

forago · 23/10/2014 19:41

jeez what happened last night? (am on holiday)

Pagwatch · 23/10/2014 19:39

Mnhq have said they want imput
'Leave it to mnhq' when mnhq are saying openly that they think their current policy needs review is a bit odd/circular tbh.

Allhallowspeeve · 23/10/2014 19:39

Yes and so am??? Maryz picked out my comment so I was responding.

I'm out! Enjoy!

Maryz · 23/10/2014 19:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 23/10/2014 19:35

AllHallows MNHQ asked for opinions about this subject, Mary is only offering hers.

Allhallowspeeve · 23/10/2014 19:32

I'm sorry if my comments don't agree with you maryz. I don't mean to come across as snide, I just don't agree with you. And to be fair you picked my comment out and was arsy about it. That's why I responded to you.

Any way this is open forum with rules to report if you suspect anything. MNHQ see more than the posters can. Leave it to them.

KeemaNaanAndCurryOn · 23/10/2014 19:31

WannaBe when I was an inpatient receiving "serious psychiatric treatment" Hmm I was actively allowed access to Mumsnet as it was acknowledged that it was beneficial to me to be able to access the site. It was also acknowledged that I made very good use of social media as a form of support, both from this site and some FB groups I belong to, and I was encouraged to continue.

AnyoneForTardis · 23/10/2014 19:28

Totes agree with HQ, report a suspected troll to THEM, not blaze it on the actual thread.

Ive had that on a thread I did ages ago and it really was upsetting for me.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 19:26

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maryz · 23/10/2014 19:24

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.