OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

I haven't read right through.

I think the daytime moderating is good and it's excellent that MNHQ responds to everyone.

But I think the night watch isn't enough at night. I assume that the night watch vols don't have access to the members' database or posting history like the daytime staff and clearly they don't have the same powers.

I've sat through a nasty homophobic thread that ran all night and I separately reported another suicide thread one night on the night watch thread (and I am trained by the Samaritans and MIND to assess risk of suicide so I knew she was at risk). I was criticised on the night watch thread for reporting it and the MNHQ response the following day said that the night watch vols weren't really there for that role.

I think you need paid night staff of the same seniority as the day staff and with the same database to hand. They need the same powers to act decisively. The nights are a bit "Wild West" at the moment.

Thanks for all that MNHQ staff do though.

Ooh, all good points, see what you mean.

They shouldn't. And it would be a minefield legally and commercially. As it should be seen as now. There is a massive difference between "Mumsnet closed my thread and referred me to other sources of help" and "mumsnet posters didn't say the right thing for me, in my particular circumstances and frame of mind".

What do the lawyers say, mnhq?

And why would The Samaritans, a charity, provide full-time backup for a forum on a commercial website?

Wombat

Wombat it's good to see you

Take good care of yourself.

Good luck wombat and hope you feel better soon

The Samaritans can't actually offer 'life advice' or really give any sympathy/express empathy, or just general support which is what many people post for. They mostly just listen. It would be a very pointless, mostly one sided thread

I've had suicide prevention training and the upshot was that quite simple things can, in fact, prevent someone from doing the act in the short term at least.

These things include; reminding them of reasons not to, giving them hope that it will get better, and trying to safeguard by connecting them to other support. You don't necessary have to be a trained mental health professional to offer these things.

All this does is buy a bit of time for them to get some proper long term professional support.

But I agree that there are people for whom posting on MN will only serve to feed into the drama, actually be harmful to them and upset everybody else in the process.

I think 'suicide note' threads should be deleted but someone from MNHQ needs to at least try to engage with the person, try to make sure they know how to get support or whatever. I'm glad MNHQ are getting some advice from folks that deal with this every day.

Mumsnet is not The Samaritans.

It is a chat forum and product review site.

wombat glad your getting the help you need.

Suicide threads when they are in the form of a note - get them gone or frozen, with details of where to get help on the deletion message /email to the op/hold message if the thread is suspended. I wish I could articulate how I feel about them without being offensive, but they are very different from the "I don't want to be here, talk to me" threads.

Surely, "try not to be a drama llama" is sufficient in terms of trollery, whatever your opinion of their veracity. The saviour concept is the same, whether you believe they are real or you don't know those involved or affected. Sending money, doing a mercy dash or trawling birth and death notices is all part of the same thing and probably gives the same head rush of the righteous.

Don't give what you can afford to lose and don't think that your individual involvement, whichever side of the cynical fence, is really that important. It's not.

Could there be a Samaritans section to the MH board, which has some Samaritan mods from various parts of the country. All threads about/referring to suicide get moved there.

Could there be a private section of that board where, for whatever reason, and to protect the vulnerable (whether that be the OP or the readers) threads could be moved, and the Samaritans continue to offer support? Or the Samaritans ask them to phone in. I could see how this could be time consuming fot them to keep replying to threads indefinitely.

Perhaps an OP should PM a real name, address, current location and phone number to a designated moderator if bringing up the subject of suicide.

You can say that The Samaritans have training and experience, but they also get wind up merchants calling in with abuse or fake stories.

So yes, there are time wasters out there, and worse who will take advantage, but if the Samaritans took the attitude that some posters are advising here, they would have shut up shop long before there was any internet for trolls to play on.

Wombat

When I was struggling my firm belief was that I was a negative presence in my children's lives. Reference to their well being might have pushed me further downwards.

lil agree. I had lots of people tell me of course I wouldn't do it, I have DS. Which just added to the massive guilt complex I had going on and actually pushed me further to the edge as I felt like no one actually got how bad I was/how much help I was in need of, besides people on here and then eventually the crisis team.

What is this username bit above my message??? I'm confused haha

Zombie is one of the silent readers of the thread who was greatly distressed by it as MaryZ has repeatedly said.

She also agrees that if someone is absolutely determined to take their own life there is absolutely nothing that anyone on an internet forum can say to prevent it. Her own personal experience was 40 years ago but seeing that thread brought it all back at a time when she is having quite a difficult time coping not only with her incurable cancer but also with other things going on in her life.

She is grateful beyond words for the love and support she has found here on MN but she doesn't feel it is or should be anyone else's responsibility to try and solve those issues.

And telling somebody to 'go and hug their babies' when they are suicidal is likely to pile on even more guilt. If that was all it took, we'd have no PND.

Yes, one thing I learned fast was to not assume that somebody would behave 'typically'. Risk assessment has to have that tacit component alongside its objective side and this is not something that can be achieved online.

keema I didn't say that the internet should be withdrawn from all people with serious mh issues. but the fact that for some people it is considered the best thing for it to be withdrawn is a clear indication that not everyone's situation is the same, and that for one person the internet can be a positive while for another it can continue or even worsen the self destruct cycle.

For the person I know, tbh I was that she had no access to the outside world, and I questioned whether this was the current state of mh provision in this country and if so, how the hell could it have got to that level and were we still living in the days of institutions. But then I did some research and I spoke to a family member, and it turns out that this is considered the best course of action for her specifically. I don't know why, I am not fully aware of the facts surrounding her illness, but the fact remains that she is not allowed any contact to the outside world in any way shape or form - not even with her closest friends.

but for those posting on mn hoping to "save" someone, or to talk them down, or to be their lifeline it is simply not possible to know what state they're in and whether your "hugs" or "bump" or "just checking in," or "go and hug your babies because they need you," post is going to actually make a difference or potentially even send them spiralling in the opposite direction to you'd intended.

Need you you're post is well thought out and not wrong.

Though I was one of the ones that would have done it given enough time and no help. I personally couldn't have goen on like it. I didn't want to die but I wanted it to stop enough that I'd have killed myself if I felt I had no other option. Luckily my CMHT admitted me voluntarily, as I needed somewhere to ride it out, adjust to new meds and just be in a bubble for a few weeks. So I don't think you can say those people who don't want to die won't do it IYSWIM? And of course it's hard to think rationally when you're wiring's all wrong and you can barely make sense of a newspaper let alone your own thought process or what to do next.

I think MNHQ have enough input now and it seems obvious which route they'll take. Hope they clear up these threads asap.

There is also, sadly, another category of people who post/say/write suicide letters. A more unusual group but they do exist. Every now and again you will get a suicide by somebody who wants it to inflict pain on others, who can conceive only of making an impact adequate enough by doing this. It is a variant on the family annihilators- the need to take something away from those left behind. They may be very mentally unwell themselves, but their motives also involve rage, pain and bitterness.

And MN (and other forums) are vulnerable to being used as part of this because the fall out would be immense.

Hello everyone

After providing details to mumsnet I have been proven to NOT be a troll thank you to the mumsnet team for the support.

I am in hind sight of seeing the trouble my post caused of course regretting posting, but please see I found myself at the end of my tether

I am under going medication and have a crisis team and CPN who are helping me each day

Thank you to all who supported me it was important to prove I was no troll not for me but for others who posted and pm,ed me personal things

To all who still won't believe tough luck your problem not mine!! And I have been advised to report any hunting or bullying

I have myself and family to concentrate on at the moment

Thank you again xxxx