OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

"I'd be inclined to trust MNHQ on what feeds trolls. They are up to date with how forums like this work, they exchange best practice with the HQs of other similar forums, they know the latest research. Facts and all that." riiight. So that's why mn is pretty much the only site where suicide note style threads are allowed to stand then? (Confused) that's why they're only now seeking guidance on this even though posters have been calling for this to be changed for years? (Hmm)

Telephone helplines of all kinds need suicide procedures for callers at high risk of completing suicide (details of risk assessment below) and, the policy is usually one of the following:

Option one: We will remain with the caller on the phone and we will only summon help for her with her permission. This might mean listening to the caller die.

Option two: We will remain on the phone with the caller but with or without the caller's permission we will summon help using any identifying details we have. The caller will be told this. This might mean listening to the caller die if we can't get help to her in time.

Option three: We not attempt to support callers who are at high risk of completing suicide. We will ask if they would like us to summon help for them and we will encourage them to call the Samaritans but then we will terminate the call (hang up the phone).

These options are all hard to do but you need to be crystal clear on your policy and use it every time.

The equivalent choices for Mumsnet would be:

Option one: We will allow the poster to continue posting we will only summon help for her with her permission. This might mean the poster continues to post throughout their suicide I.e. They post until they become unconscious (which, in my experience of taking suicide calls, can include details of their physical sensations as their body becomes rapidly iller)

Option two: We will allow the poster to continue posting but with or without the poster's permission we will summon help using any identifying details we have (for example by raking through the posting history in all usernames to find identifying details and by informing the police). The poster would be told this. As above this might mean the poster continues to post through their suicide.

Option three: We will not allow posters to post if they are at high risk of completing suicide imminently. We will ask if they would like us to summon help for them and we will encourage them to call the Samaritans but then we will lock or remove the thread.

NB - Moving the thread doesn't negate the need to choose a policy and asking the poster to post again without mentioning their suicidal feelings could be more damaging. Many helplines (inc Samaritans) ask every caller whether they are feeling suicidal because being able to talk about it is one factor which may help someone choose not to kill themselves.

Finally, please note the what I have written relates to posters at high risk of completing suicide imminently Those at lower risk should be allowed to discuss suicidal feelings. Samaritans offer excellent training in risk assessment but briefly:

• poster feels suicidal but has no plan for how they would kill themselves. Poster is not at high risk of imminent suicide (although still at risk and still needing support - it's a myth that people who talk about suicide don't do it - in fact the majority of people who complete suicide have given clear indications of their intentions).

• poster feels suicidal AND has a plan but has not gathered the things they need to begin suicide. E.g. "I'm going to hang myself from the tree in the garden once I've bought a rope". This poster is at greater risk.

• poster feels suicidal AND has a plan AND has what they need to carry out the plan. E.g. "I'm going to take all the tablets in the house". This poster is at even higher risk.

• poster feels suicidal AND has a plan AND has what they need to carry out the plan AND has begun to harm themselves (such as she has cut her wrists or taken an overdose). This poster it at very high risk.

So for posters who have begun a suicide attempt and then posted and possibly for those who haven't begun an attempt but who have gathered what they need, Mumsnet needs to choose a policy and stick to it. All of this requires staff/vols available 24/7 with the ability to carry out the policy rapidly.

Best of luck - it's a tough one.

up to date with how forums like this work

No point trolling if everyone knows you are talking bollocks, really.

Troll hunting does not feed trolls.

If I was going to troll MN, my aim would be for every gullible person on this website to believe my story.

And: "Do, please, resist the urge to 'trollhunt' on the boards: in our experience, trolls thrive on attention the more dramatically other posters react, the more likely they are to stick around and cause mayhem. Ignore their posts and, usually, they'll go away."

What the Talk Guidelines say:

"If you suspect someone of being a troll, please don't trollhunt (accuse them publicly on the discussion thread). If you're wrong, you could cause untold hurt; if you're right, you'll merely be giving them the kind of attention they're after."

I'd be inclined to trust MNHQ on what feeds trolls. They are up to date with how forums like this work, they exchange best practice with the HQs of other similar forums, they know the latest research. Facts and all that.

You don't think telling your sad stories to trolls is feeding them? You don't think that PMing them with your phone no is feeding them?

That's what they want.

You are giving them what they want.

I get that you think troll hunting is worse, I disagree.

No-one is defending trolls - you're setting up a straw man. Ignore if you think they are trolls -don't give them the attention - why would you feed a troll ? That's bizarre ! People who think a poster is genuine will post helpful replies, those who think its a troll will report.if enough people report MNHQ will post a reminder, if they agree that it's a troll they will pull the thread. It's a good system if people use it - the problem is I think the troll hunters actually like the drama they create by their cryptic messages and snide comments.

Let them troll to their hearts content then.

Fuck the posters they upset.

I'm out of this thread.

Nope I disagree, It's the trolls who are the problem.

The defense of trolls on MN is bizarre.

I've seen trolls do far more damage to forums than your imaginary vigilante gangs.

Great post, Dinglethdragon. Couldn't agree more.

What does it matter if an OP is a troll? If people respond with honest and helpful replies then the thread will benefit others who are reading anyway. If an Op is dodgy and people are investing too much in a thread then MNHQs timely interventions of "don't invest more than you can afford to give" will be triggered by people REPORTING it rather than making snide comments on thread. I will repeat (it's late and I'm tired) it's the vigilante gangs that are a bigger problem.

Nobody prescribes medication on here for cancer patients though,they regularly 'prescribe' treatments/advice/theories for mental health sufferers.

Seeing the trolls get away with it time and time again puts people off.

Quite shocked at the posts saying this is a parenting site not a mh site. The two can and do exist together. It's like saying it's a parenting site and not a cancer site.

'As for my views on the suicide threads - simply find out from the experts in the field (MIND, Samaritans etc) what is the best practice and then implement it. It doesn't matter what anyone wants to happen, or 99% of users want x or y - there is no perfect solution - just implement best practice and stop agonising about it.'

Excellent point ,well made Dinglethedragon

It's happened to pretty much all of us, Dinglethdragon. It would help if people knew it wasn't personal.

I've recently ncd after about 4yrs with one, much loved (by me) name. I did it because it's highly possible one of my dc will look at MN, will guess from the name and details about life, pets etc that it's me. If they were nosy enough to do a search they would find comments about their father, my ex, that I don't think it's appropriate they see. I have used MN to vent. I have become wary again of posting anything on a controversial thread because, like others have said, being accused of being a troll or sock puppet really can feel like being bullied, especially here when it can be sustained and done by a 'gang'.

It happend to me when I first joined and made the newbie mistake of supporting an unpopular OP simply by saying I understood what she was trying to say. In my naïveté I thought people were having a go at her because they didn't quite get what she was saying . The troll hunters on that thread tore into both of us, believing I was the OPs sock puppet. Not nice, but I've been around the internet since the early 90's (Pre-web) so shook the dust from my sandles and registered with a new ID

Troll hunting on thread is poison to any forum - I saw it tear apart a fan forum, it's not just MN. The only change re. Trolls and troll hunting I would like to see is stronger management of anyone who troll hunts on thread. It doesn't matter if you're right or not, report and let MNHQ deal with it. Seeing the troll hunting does put people off asking for advice and that needs to be stopped. Don't make out you're defending the vulnerable, it's a vigilante culture among some people on here and it's ugly.

As for my views on the suicide threads - simply find out from the experts in the field (MIND, Samaritans etc) what is the best practice and then implement it. It doesn't matter what anyone wants to happen, or 99% of users want x or y - there is no perfect solution - just implement best practice and stop agonising about it.

I'm one of the lurkers, though I do post on mental health a bit, and have had lots of support on there. I posted when I was really unwell, and that encouraged me to get help.

I did get a bit too unwell to post though at one point, and put a few triggering things and a method on the board because I wasn't in a very good place at all.

That said, there were posters who thought I wasn't genuine, and then deliberately wound me up into even more of a state. I deleted my account and set up a new one because of it- making it look even worse, but I didn't know the rules/ about trolls then!

So I think mental health is like any other place on mumsnet: people post what they think is reasonable, sometimes it is, sometimes it upsets people, sometimes people fall out, sometimes they make good friendships. In the main, people support one another.

There are live DV and birth threads where support is given and the same worries apply, so I think suicide threads should be allowed to stay.

I'm on a thread at the minute where a lady posted saying she'd made an attempt on her life and thanks to the support on here, went to hospital and is now getting support.

That said, because I had a bad experience, I tend not to post much now and just read. If you are unwell, mumsnet can be a scary place- but that is the risk you take in posting. Just move the threads to mental health with a trigger warning and appropiate links for the poster when it's flagged up. Also remove details of methods, but let the rest stay.

Or better still, if HQ ARE taking advice then there's really no need to start a huge debate dragging everything up. Take the advice, post it and stop stirring it all up more in my honest view.

Wombat I admire your resilience.

Just wanted to refer to the point pacificdogwoodmade up thread, and although I agree that everybody has their own triggers/topics they want to avoid, I do feel suicide notes being posted on here fall into a category of their own.

MNers may have been affected by miscarriage/DV/rape but when someone posts about it, you can't change the fact it's happened but you can give advice/support if you choose to or hide the thread if it's too painful.

The guilt that bereaved relatives are left with following a loved ones suicide makes it very hard to ignore a suicide threat. 'You couldn't save yours, can you make a difference here' kind of reasoning.

I'm waffling a bit because I'm tired, but hope you understand where I'm coming from.