OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

Thank god it'll be closed over the weekend. Don't leave it unsupervised again.

Wow, I never thought I'd say that to Rowan. I like unsupervised, unsupervised is fun. Especially with trolly man journalists who slag off mumsnet

my original post on site stuff that got deleted and started all this bullshit off, was just about THAT.

protecting vulnerable posters by either locking or moving a thread or being able for us or MNHQ to post a warning on them saying 'this might not be genuine, please be careful and dont share your personal info'

that is ALL.

it matters if the OP is a troll if people are pming said troll with phonenumbers, emails addresses and sometimes even real home addresses.. and even in a couple of extreme cases, jumping in cars to go meet someone.

it matters because its putting other posters in danger.

people need to ALL be aware that a poster may not genuine and they really, really, REALLY shouldn't be pming personal info to ANYONE on this forum.

if the posts are locked/moved/deleted then it prevents not only those gullible/kindly souls from being taken advantage of and put at risk of their information being used for nefarious purposes, but also defends the vulnerable readers.

Sangria, if that was directed at me, I don't condone trolling at all, and I don't know why'd get that from my post. It just doesn't make sense to me why people actively engage them, when there's a way to report them.

I have a huge issue with this image Mumsnet have created of troll hunters.

Now people are saying they are over invested vigilante terrible people and then NAMING other posters as troll hunters.

It's a convenient way of abusing another poster, after all the thread has been deleted.

Mumsnet prides itself on operating differently to other sites, Justine's not in favour or removing anonymity like other sites are and has said so in the media.

She's also said that many Mnet uses meet up so if the site owner is not against this than I don't see why it should be commented on as a bad thing -unless you call it Tinder for Mums

What can be a 'I'm feeling very low' thread can slip into a 'I'm feeling so low, that I want this to end and I dont know the best way for it to end' thread

This is what happened to me/on my thread. And I've seen it elsewhere but the support I/they got was invaluble. I hope MNHQ don't count those as 'live suicide threads'

There are trolls of course there are. Some extremely vile one.

But coming on a thread just to say in a very vague manner that you think the OP is a troll just stirs trouble.

If you think something isn't right report then hide.

Instead of getting all high and mighty.

From reading this thread carefully, it seems to me that the best policy is to close a thread once it is clear that a poster is threatening an imminent suicide attempt and post a link to emergency help. Partially because there does seem to be the potential to cause a ripple effect amongst those who are feeling more vulnerable themselves at that point and partially because the affect it can have if the poster is subsequently found to have committed suicide can be very profound - people often blame themselves for what they said/didn't say.

(apologies if I have muddled my affects and effects!)

The tricky part I think is knowing when to shut a thread. Bad things happen to all of us and mental health issues can affect anyone. What can be a 'I'm feeling very low' thread can slip into a 'I'm feeling so low, that I want this to end and I dont know the best way for it to end' thread. Mn can be a hugely supportive place and I dont want it to become the sort of place where we can only talk about happy things - but sad times come on a sliding scale - when do we pull the plug and say this is beyond the capability of mn to help and support?

I do think troll hunters like to think of themselves as being in the know - they are effectively saying 'I'm so sensitive and clever that Sherlock would bow down before me'

I do not doubt that some people have great trolldar and can spot them when others can't - some those people need to park their egos and simply report their suspicions. If they continue to flaunt their disregard of site guidelines they should be banned. Every other poster who continues to CONSISTENTLY break the site guidelines gets banned - troll hunters are not a special case - and I'm getting fed up seeing them treated as a special case and defended.

Yes. The amount of sad stories does indeed increase exponentially in run up to Christmas.

Thank you Elle and moose for taking the time to post those useful and informative posts

And yet another post defending trolls and slagging off those who out them.

World. Gone. Mad.

it's official.

But carry on, and don't forget to nominate Trolly McTroll for the Christmas Secret Santa! (you do all realise that's another of the reasons why half the threads in active at the moment are complete and utter bollocks, right? Please tell me you do?)

What does it matter if an OP is a troll? If people respond with honest and helpful replies then the thread will benefit others who are reading anyway. If an Op is dodgy and people are investing too much in a thread then MNHQs timely interventions of "don't invest more than you can afford to give" will be triggered by people REPORTING it rather than making snide comments on thread. I will repeat (it's late and I'm tired) it's the vigilante gangs that are a bigger problem.

No-one is defending trolls - you're setting up a straw man. Ignore if you think they are trolls -don't give them the attention - why would you feed a troll ? That's bizarre ! People who think a poster is genuine will post helpful replies, those who think its a troll will report.if enough people report MNHQ will post a reminder, if they agree that it's a troll they will pull the thread. It's a good system if people use it - the problem is I think the troll hunters actually like the drama they create by their cryptic messages and snide comments.

This ^ x 100.

There are plenty of warnings in place about over investing yourself. Why anybody is becoming friends off board is a mystery to me, nobody here can who know anybody is. MN does not operate in a vacuum, there are organisations run by properly trained people who are linked to countlessly on threads where people need support.

I can't see any reason why someone would call troll on a thread, unless it's to try to make themselves look 'in the know'. Just report it, all the "I'm calling bullshit" surely is just entertaining to a troll.

Could MNHQ answer a question about the Night Watch, please?

What time do they take over & if you see a dodgy post, be it trolling, spamming or whatever, do you press the report button on the post or do you have to go to the Night Watch thread to report it?

Thanks.

And all the savers would do well to read and remember those 7 points Elle highlights and put their energy into that rather than slagging off the soi-disant trollhunters.

I didnt see the original thread and feel that I have missed something big. I can see why "live" threads with people expressing suicidal feelings may be seen as "entertainment" but the very fact they have posted here suggests they are looking for help, albeit full of confusion and doubt. In my experience people who have made the final decision to end their lives rarely tell anyone.

I would think the ins and outs of managing to work out a system where a trained Samaritan can pop onto MN to support a poster is beyond both tech and volunteer capacities (speaking as one who manned the volunteer rota for her local Sams branch for 18 months - there are never enough volunteers!)

I would also add to Mooesy's post by saying that:

1. Samaritan's DO NOT try to stop people ending their life.
2. We attempt to give them a safe space where they can talk about their feelings and hope this gives them a way forward and hope.

1. We go through a stringent recruitment, selection and training process that equips us to deal with the emotions that go with, again as Mooesy states, in a worst case scenario, hearing someone die whilst they're on the phone to us.
2. We have significant support and a mandatory debrief after every shift, to allow us to manage our emotions about calls.
3. We do not have special powers to decide whether a caller is 'genuine' or 'trolling' and we have to manage every call as it is presented to us.
4. We accept that everyone has the right to self-determination, i.e. the right to decide to end their own life. This is the hardest and most important point

IMO, suicidal threads should be deleted and the Samaritans contact number PM'd to the OP and possibly as part of the deletion message.

Already on this thread there have been two completely contrasting edicts about What One Should Say on a suicide thread.

Someone said (linking I believe to the Sams) that what one must NOT do, is guilt trip them by talking about their babies etc. Someone else said one SHOULD remind them of what they have to live for, ie their babies.

It can't be both can it?

So how the hell is the common or garden MNer going to know what the best thing to say is?

They're clearly not. Which is why the threads should go.

And to posit asking the Sams to just pop over and deal with all this shit on MN's behalf is just risible. Because they've nothing else to do, surely....

And back to the trolling, although this is starting to feel like Groundhog Day. The worst trolls are long term, well known members, Wannabe has listed just a couple of them upthread. Trolls create a history before they deliver the slam dunk.

And all these well known names who are trollhunters, as someone has said, perhaps you just start to get a feel for the bullshit after a while. It really is that simple. And in the eleventy billion threads about her since Sunday, I have seen ONE poster calling troll and that was in one of the TAATs.

Thinking about it, it's utterly voyeuristic and pointless having live suicide threads. Kind of one of those satirical suggestions for what might happen on channel five.
This is a parenting and chat forum and there should be clear boundaries. I'm also sick of the knee jerk derailing that goes on the moment anyone posts anything controversial or unpopular and the troll hunting rules should be implemented heavily. Might stop people. Also needs to be coupled with a swift response to reports.
But some posters do seem to feel some ownership and investment in the site which is probably unhealthy/unproductive.

Mumsnetters should not be risk be rushing assessing suicidal posters..

They should be referred to an appropriate service where this can be handled by professionals.

Ambulance/police need to be involved if necessary. What if this person has children in the house? What if they are attempting suicide in a way that puts others at risk? Their dr also needs to be informed about deterioration of symptoms.

I think there are two different kinds of troll. The ones who thrive on shocking people and causing bunfights, in which case, yes, troll hunting will give them the attention they want so ignoring them will make them go away.

The other kind are a kind of grief troll though who make up sad stories in order to get lots of attention and sympathy. People are sucked in and share lots of personal things or become distressed or even meet with troll and are severely affected (cvq) I think these are the trolls people try to warn others about by "troll hunting" and the usual talk guidelines don't quite apply to these trolls as much as the immature fighting ones.

This thread should have been locked at 6.30pm and reinstated once HQ were back in the morning.

Mary I don't think that the troll hunting/trolling refers just to that thread but is linked to that type of thread and part of a general topic which is being discussed

I think MN is unusual in the admin team engaging with posters to find out opinion before acting. They will never satisfy everyone obviously so there will always be shouts of nothing was done...

Totally agree with DingleDragon.

I didn't see the Wombat thread but I read the subsequent TAAT where people were frequently talking about Daisy, who I assume was a troll hunter. I just hope people don't start associating Daisy with other people with a similar user name . As I often get shortened to Daisy.

Maybe that's another reason for not having TAATs when there is a risk that facts may be read out of context.