OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

Lemon

Unfortunately I clicked on a "suicide thread" not realising what it was based on the thread title. If I had 'listened' and 'supported' and that poster had then committed suicide I would NOT be able to cope. Had that thread been where it possibly should have been (ie Mental Health) I wouldn't even have opened it, but it was in "Chat"! It's all very well saying have somewhere separate, but people post where they'll get the responses the want.

I think it would be misguided to facilitate peer support via mumsnet posters for people threatening suicide or in the process of ending their life.

Give over JustScream.

Nobody forces them to accuse and insinuate do they? They do it of their own back.

If they just reported then hid the thread instead of staying on it just to shit stir there would be no cause for anyone to call them anything would there?

Right, there is an awful lot of psychological analysis of troll hunters as fucking awful people.

Do you think you could perhaps remember that unlike discussing trolls you are talking about other posters. And more than once on several threads have referred to posters as troll hunters, incorrectly.

Please?

No discussion at all can be had with that kind of attitude. I report troll hunting, and trolls. I never accuse either on a thread. But I may bloody well start .....

WannaBe I'm sorry if I offended, but I think your response was a bit snide. You obviously don't think I'm advocating a live suicide feed, surely? I just can't imagine anyone wanting to die alone, scared and broken, especially if these people have come to MN for support.

My argument about the password protection is that nobody would stumble across any threads relating to suicide, without being made aware of what they were already. And, maybe I am naive, but I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and I do think a lot of those stopping by aren't rubber-necking, they're empathising with the OP. I certainly am.

Goodboy I totally see where you're coming from, and sorry, I didn't address the troll-hunting. I completely agree with you- the report button is definitely underused as far as I'm concerned! Why get into an argument with someone you think is lying? They'll stoop a lot lower than you will, so it's unlikely you'll be able to win with any grace. These people obviously don't have morals, so it's not like you'll be teaching them a lesson.

As to your point about not everyone having Samaritans training, I do understand, but feel that what most people want is what most people can provide- a friendly, calm, empathetic ear. I'm not for a moment suggesting we all need training (!) but all you have to do is listen really. Posters such as these often fear they're not valued or believed, and so by simply being there you can change how that. I do also think that if these threads were on a private board, those who didn't feel able to offer support wouldn't visit.

It feels wrong that someone in such a desperate state as Wombat has had to keep justifying herself.

Imo the troll hunters have a sense of self importance. They are not happy to report a thread they are suspicious of but have to drop not so subtle hints like " are you new to MN? " so this then attracts all the other self important sorts to have a go.

Then the shit hits the fan.

Just report. Don't start pm'ing posters with your views. Just leave it.

If it is a troll and all those suspicious report it HQ will do their digging, said troll will be banned. No hoody ha needed.

You're not here to save MN.

As has been said many times before, the ease of name-changing is probably the main reason that MN has such an abundance of trolls. If MNHQ really want to reduce the problem of trolling, they would have to disable that function. I've had a few nicknames over the years, though I've used this one for the longest. I find it convenient to be able to change names occasionally. But in the conflict between user convenience and the harmful consequences of rampant trolling, I'd use all my ammunition to fight the latter before protecting the former, if you'll excuse the military metaphors.

Unfortunately, it can be very difficult to prove someone is a troll, except in the most blatant situations of sock-puppeting, etc. With the best will in the world, even when MNHQ claim they have no reason to doubt a poster's authenticity, they can't actually know one way or the other. They can say that someone has a consistent posting history and has been a member for X number of years. But that really doesn't mean anything. A long-term troll could very easily build up that sort of history, as many people on this thread have pointed out.

I don't really see a major problem with troll-hunting on MN. Occasionally a poster may be hounded or even tracked down IRL, and that sort of behaviour is entirely beyond the pale. But IME it happens rarely. Trolling, on the other hand, happens daily. And there still isn't a mechanism in place to cope adequately with trolls. I don't suppose it is possible to eliminate trolling altogether. But the current system doesn't work terribly well IMO.

As for the threads about imminent suicide, they should be deleted immediately IMO (as I posted above). MN shouldn't pretend to be something it is not. It would be very dangerous to allow such threads. Delete them and then PM and/or email the OP with relevant resources. That is the best MN can do.

"everyone has the right to decide how they live and die, and if they've made up their mind to die and don't want to be alone in their final moments, then who are we to deprive them of that?" so you actually think that mn should go so far as having live suicide threads? How far do you think that mn should take this? the ability for op to talk about how they want to kill themselves? perhaps a link to a live video stream where users can watch them do it and "be there" while they die? y'know, just so as they don't have to die alone?

It's all very well to say that only those who wouldn't be triggered should go on to a suicide thread, but reality is that you don't always know that it's a suicide thread until you've opened it, and once you've seen it, there's no way to unsee it. and it is naïve in the extreme to think that only sympathetic people go on to these threads. reality is that most people who keep going back for updates are just voyeuristic, and it's just virtual entertainment. Yes that's an unpalatable thought but it's true. Just look at how many people stop at the scene of an accident, or if someone is threatening to jump off a bridge/building. They're not stopping there so as to be there for that person in their hour of need, they're stopping to see if they actually go through with it.

Nice to know that mn are stifling discussion over the weekend. Presumably they hope that by next week posters will have forgotten about it and moved on. Assuming someone doesn't start a spin-off thread or two....

Rowan, when you lock this thread for the weekend can you also ask that no other threads on this subject are started?

Yes, Zombie does believe in unicorns.

Lemon

Few posters have had your training and are emotionally I'll-equipped to deal with that scenario.

I don't see how a 'protected area' would help as the poster would probably still post in chat for 'traffic' anyway.

I honestly think that the trolls will only win if people troll-hunt on a thread instead of reporting and staying away.

ok thanks Just I stand corrected, has someone named you then ScaryZ if so I apologise - I certainly haven't seen that.

Dingle, the post naming Maryz was deleted. You came to the thread after that

unless I am mistaken ScaryZ, always possible on a friday afternoon, no-one on this thread has named anyone else as a troll hunter, the only named THs are the ones naming themselves - so I'm really as to why you would say this "Yet every time one of these threads comes up I suddenly become TrollHunterExtraordinaire . And accused of delighting in catching people out." - who named you and accuses you of that?

PacificDogwood has it nailed IMO
"Post nice.
Report suspicious stuff.
Only post what you can afford to loose - effort, time, emotions, painful memories (well, we'd all like to loose them, but you know what I mean hopefully), contact details, money, goods."
and IMO "post nice" = obey the guidelines - ALL of them not just the ones you agree with.

It's easy to cry troll hunter after the thread is deleted.

This thread makes me sad, and I can't read through all of it because it's upsetting, not just because we're talking about the end of life in distress, but also because everyone feels very passionately, and rightly so on such an emotive subject.

It's a bit of a half-baked idea, but how about a password-protected extra section in chat that didn't show up in most active etc for threads such as these? I hate to think of someone in their last hours wanting some company instead of ending their life alone, and their thread being locked / deleted- which just looks like we don't care? It can also be argued that the removal of threads such as these for the comfort of everyone else aren't dealing with the person who needs comfort the most? I know 'goodbye' posts are distressing to read, but what you're feeling when you read one can't even come close to how the OP must feel.

I have volunteered for Samaritans, and policy was never to leave someone to die alone if you could help it. Additionally, we shouldn't be there to take their choice away from them. Everyone has the right to decide how they live and die, and if they've made up their mind to die and don't want to be alone in their final moments, then who are we to deprive them of that? For example, what if the person is a long-term poster, who has very few RL friends to count on, and feels close enough to open their heart to MN- would you want that person to post a goodbye note and have it deleted? MN, as the place for their solace would be leaving them out in the cold, imho.

While the posts can be triggering we were always taught that you can't put the idea of suicide into someone's head...it will have been there already. Those who are vulnerable can stay away from the 'private boards', and those who want to offer some support, can.

Would putting an extra password barrier also sort out some of the trolling? Probably, as these posts won't get so much traffic?

Sorry if some of this has already been covered, I just can't bear to read the whole thread RTFT I know

But that is actually irrelevant.

My one point on this thread, if mnhq listen to one, is asking for support is different from posting a goodbye thread

A bit tired of being consistently named as a troll hunter.

I don't think I have called troll on any specific thread in years, not since the report and hide guidelines, or even asked pointed questions. I obey the rules.

What I do do is go on threads outside of the thread in question. I don't name people unless mnhq have; if you find any discussions you will find the original thread is almost always proven to be suspect. I thought Site Stuff was there for this type of conversation, but it seems to be just a place for posters to chuck insults at "regulars"

Yet every time one of these threads comes up I suddenly become TrollHunterExtraordinaire . And accused of delighting in catching people out.

I wish I never saw a troll; I wish people who needed support got it instead of being ignored in favour of dramatic exaggerated or even entirely fictitious threads that go on and on.

This thread reminds me of the PenAndInk days. And for those who don't know he was a troll, as were his friends. I didn't hunt him - he told us all about it.

Well said emotionsecho. As said above I think it's time for MNHQ to 'person up' and make a decision on this.

How can it be a reasonable position to let suicide threads stand? Someone compared them to live birth threads earlier in this thread and live DV threads.

They aren't comparable, certainly not live birth threads.

Lil, yes I also meant people responding to threads, all threads.

The damage to users of this site and the subsequent repercussions to both site and users of allowing/leaving live suicide threads will be devastating when, as will happen, one does end with the death of the person posting. I am staggered that MNHQ would even contemplate letting this happen.

As others have so eloquently said, users of this site are not trained for this kind of event, and most people are not emotionally capable of dealing with either the event or the inevitable ramifications.

These are extreme and rare incidents and, in my opinion, extreme and rare measures should be implemented. My suggestions are

MNHQ to make it a condition of using the site that it is not used for live action suicide attempts or the posting of suicide notes.

If a user does post a suicide note and graphic details of the process of their suicide, site users who open the thread are to report immediately without making any comment on the thread, thus the thread would not stay in Active Conversations for long, alternatively MNHQ may be able to put in place a system whereby the use of certain words or phrases in an OP trigger an alert that requires them to immediately look at a thread and close it before others have a chance to read or post on it. The latter may not be practical and may go against the ethos of the site.

The thread should be closed immediately and a message sent to the poster detailing why and providing details of where the poster should go to seek professional help.

A deletion message on the board to state that the thread has been deleted for breaking Terms and Conditions number whatever, the poster has been advised of where to seek help and no further threads discussing either the contents or the poster are allowed.

People have asked Seasalt but MNHQ haven't responded.