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OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

833 replies

RowanMumsnet · 23/10/2014 10:10

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

OP posts:
SplatTheScaryCat · 24/10/2014 17:03

considering you said that mnhq dont work a 9-5, you're doing a pretty good job of giving us that impression with leaving this thread at 6pm yesterday, not showing up until after 9am this morning, then saying you're going to lock this at just after 5pm on friday for the whole weekend.

i guess we only get to discuss serious stuff when it suits you!

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 17:03

Have good weekends all

Flowers Brew Wine Cake Bike

OP posts:
JustScreamNobHurts · 24/10/2014 17:02

I've just reported your post Rowan, erm please don't take the method of messaging the wrong way Blush

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 17:00

Nerf it's our goal (always) to deal with reports and threads using the Talk Guidelines and the spirit of the site as our lodestones (can you have two lodestones?) but with discretion, humanity and common sense. If anyone breaks any rule persistently we will deal with them. But the people we aim to come down on hardest of all is people trolling/deliberately trouble-making in this lovely and unique corner of the internet.

OP posts:
RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 16:56

Oh no, it's Ellen on tonight. Who is ALSO very scary.

OP posts:
Nerf · 24/10/2014 16:56

Okay . One last thing before you go Rowan. When there is a policy can it be visibly implemented - quick response to reporting of threads, quick deletion of troll hunting, banning maybe of repeat offenders? At the moment there seems to be, with the light moderation, far too much of a sense of ownership and investment frustrating some people who then feel it's okay to be rude or pissed off they don't get there own way.

PacificDogwood · 24/10/2014 16:53

MrsL, I had to LOL at 'Life is triggering' - too true! Grin

Have a nice weekend, Rowan Smile

RowanMumsnet · 24/10/2014 16:52

OK folks - we're going to lock this one soon for the weekend.

Please don't start new threads on this topic over the weekend; we won't be able to monitor them closely and we're aware lots of people feel this debate has been going on for long enough already. Feels like everyone's had a tough week, one way and the other, and a massive bunfight over the weekend with lots of accusations and hurt feelings isn't what anyone wants.

Plus Olivia's on duty tonight and you KNOW how scary she is.

OP posts:
temporaryusername · 24/10/2014 16:46

That's what I meant Mrs L, it is inevitable, it isn't just MH threads.

MrsLettuce · 24/10/2014 16:44

FFS. Life is triggering.

JustScreamNobHurts · 24/10/2014 16:39

No, I won't give over. How utterly condescending .... Read Daisy's post, she's now worried that troll hunter, name and shamers may put her on some sort of shit list.

temporaryusername · 24/10/2014 16:39

Threads about suicide are the most extreme example of a site-wide issue.

Many of the other issues - relationships, general health and pretty much all topics really - involve advice over decisions that are important. What if someone gives the wrong advice there and causes a major problem for the OP? What is someone finds the details on the thread triggering?

Obviously there is a big difference in the case of posters expressing immediate suicidal intent. I just think that some posts on this thread are dividing MN into 'chat' versus 'mental health' when really many of the topics are serious and delicate. It comes across as prejudice.

Doyouthinktheysaurus · 24/10/2014 16:30

Please don't feel you have to leave the thread Lemon. I just feel that while your intentions are good, the idea is extremely misguided.

Yes, it's inappropriate use of a public forum for sure and completely open to exploitation. But mostly, it's not fair on the users of the site.

As I said I've worked in mental health for many years and I carry the emotional scars from working with actively suicidal people and dealing with the reality of successful suicide. I have access to clinical supervision and peer support but the reality of knowing i couldn't save someone will haunt me forever, even though in all honesty I could not have done any more. It just isn't something that ever leaves you, I'm sure other my professionals would echo that.

That's the impact on me with training and years of experience behind me. The impact on lay people without that training and experience could be untold damage.

Itsfab · 24/10/2014 16:26

MNHQ have been asking for years for people not to post troll comments on threads. People still do it. Why do they? I think even posting "reported" is against the rules or should be as it does the same thing.

PuddingandPie1 · 24/10/2014 16:22

I agree - nothing will happen: mainly there isn't much that can be done.

The trolls will still troll - and will sometimes get booted off the site.
The troll-hunters will still hunt (with variable degrees of subtlety) - and will probably not get booted off the site.
The sock puppets will still be around - blindingly obvious in some cases.

And three months from now the site will still be facing exactly the same problems that all open access forums face.

LittleBearPad · 24/10/2014 16:13

It's a bit of a half-baked idea, but how about a password-protected extra section in chat that didn't show up in most active etc for threads such as these? I hate to think of someone in their last hours wanting some company instead of ending their life alone, and their thread being locked / deleted- which just looks like we don't care? It can also be argued that the removal of threads such as these for the comfort of everyone else aren't dealing with the person who needs comfort the most? I know 'goodbye' posts are distressing to read, but what you're feeling when you read one can't even come close to how the OP must feel.

I have volunteered for Samaritans, and policy was never to leave someone to die alone if you could help it. Additionally, we shouldn't be there to take their choice away from them. Everyone has the right to decide how they live and die, and if they've made up their mind to die and don't want to be alone in their final moments, then who are we to deprive them of that? For example, what if the person is a long-term poster, who has very few RL friends to count on, and feels close enough to open their heart to MN- would you want that person to post a goodbye note and have it deleted? MN, as the place for their solace would be leaving them out in the cold, imho

Seriously! MN is not the Samaritans. It has neither the expertise or the resources to set itself up as a support network for people planning to kill themselves. It cannot be everything for everyone

LemonDrizzleTwunt · 24/10/2014 16:13

Hi Doyouthinktheysaurus I'm sorry you think it's horrific; can you expand? Is that it is on a public forum? If so, I totally get it, and happen to agree with you, but that is the method that the OP chose to make contact, and whilst we can do all sorts of encouraging to seek the proper help, we can't make them pick up the phone to the relevant helpline.

I think I am going to go now, as I can see I am pretty much the only one who feels this way, and I think that this should be a decision for MNHQ and the majority; particularly those who have been here longer than me and remember more of the trolling / trollhunting. I don't want to muddy the waters any further or cause any upset.

MiddletonPink · 24/10/2014 16:12

If they get no replies this won't carry on.

They can only carry on with interaction.

PacificDogwood · 24/10/2014 16:10

I agree, the situation here is much more public than one Samaritan on the phone to a suicidal person.

The more I think about it, I agree with everybody who suggested to come up with a policy, having taken advice re best practice from the relevant bodies and then sticking to it religiously.

We don't ALL have to like it and it may or may not be the best solution for all possible imaginable scenarios, but that would just be impossible.

I think this thread ought to be locked - it's getting a bit bunfighty.

wooooosualsuspect · 24/10/2014 16:09

Nothing will happen.

The trolls will still troll. Reporters will still get 'everything checks out our end' Emails in reply.

And this conversation will be had again in a few months time.

Doyouthinktheysaurus · 24/10/2014 16:06

Lemon imo, the idea of supporting people so they don't die alone is a truly horrific suggestion.

This is a public forum, it's so voyeuristic, it's just awful.

The Samaritans may have different policies, but their interactions with people are private and the volunteers have training and support. I absolutely take my hat off to the volunteers who can work within those parameters of not intervening because I know I couldn't and I've been working with people with severe mental health problems for years.

MiddletonPink · 24/10/2014 16:04

Usual if people didn't respond to a ' highly suspicious thread ' we all know the sort and just reported it then the trolls wouldn't get the attention ( whether it's from well meaning people or troll hunters ) the thread wouldn't take off, HQ would be alerted to it and zap it if necessary.

We should all give it a go and see what happens.

LittleBearPad · 24/10/2014 15:59

It's a good plan to lock the thread. If MNHQ aren't here to respond nothing can progress anyway

LemonDrizzleTwunt · 24/10/2014 15:56

Point taken, goodboy. I suppose there's no way to police that, only after it's happened. I also accept your point about not being able to cope. It's not fair to ask someone to do that who hasn't willingly entered into it, and may not have RL support of their own to deal with how they feel about the whole thing.

wooooosualsuspect · 24/10/2014 15:56

The trolls must be laughing their heads off at the troll hunter hunters...

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