<<whispers>> Was there ever any clarification about whether the issue with GF was swearing on here?

Ah sorry - just checked the dates on that and it was a couple of years ago - NOT recent!

Well, I suspect that that site is also run on a shoe-string. I would be more impressed if GF showed she was prepared to take on the big guns in order to protect her reputation rather than only aiming at relatively small fry.

Freckle, we don't know for sure that she isn't taking action against other sites or newspapers or whatever.

I agree with quite a lot of what bloss has said although I still think there's something deeply flawed about GF's thinking here and the way she's chosen to go about expressing her hurt both on threads in the past - the threat of '15 minutes of fame' etc. for anyone who remembers it and with this attempt to bring action against MN.

BUT she does get a lot of stick and a lot of personal attacks which, for instance, I've never heard being written about Christopher Green et al. And I think that's what's bugging her that she's being singled out for, sometimes, 'personal abuse' most of which is unnecessary because we don't really know anything about 'her' to remark upon, unless we've met her (I don't think she's been interviewed on t.v.?), apart from biased newspaper interviews and the way we interpret her through her books.

If one good thing could come out of this it wouldn't be in any way to curb freedom of speech but to persuade people that hurtful personal attacks are never a good thing.

Jimjams, I honestly don't know why.

However, I can imagine that if I was feeling extremely emotionally battered - especially by a community which I previously had had strong and positive links with - then an apology which was given only given after threats of legal action might not feel very genuine, and hence pretty unsatisfying. I can also imagine that if I found things that awful, and it had gone on for years, that I might also think that it is the only way to get it to stop in the future. That said, I still do not think it is a wise or appropriate course of action. But I can understand it.

As others have noticed, other parenting sites have been pulling GF discussions in the last few weeks.

This is from the Google cache for the Natural Parenting (www.natural-parenting.com) Forum:

"It appears that Gina's solicitors have threatened legal action (against the NSPCC we suspect) unless Jane's original post which questioned the benefits of the Gina Ford parenting books was removed from this site! At Jane's request, I have done so. This thread shall now be closed to further posts as there is no point in attempting a fair discussion if censorship is enforced in this manner."

I read GF threads before all this and always thought they were fairly mixed. She did have people standing up for her methods (like yourself bloss). My view was that her methods were not for but would suit others. My view that the methods were not for me, did not come from mnet, but from watching my cousin and his wife use her methods. If anything contributions on mumsnet from people like yourself have made me realise her methods can be lifesavers for some.

Now I can understand her requests for points 1-4 as disclosed by Justine yesterday, yes of course an apology is in order if she has been hurt- I'm sure everyone would agree, and without knowing the details 1-4 appear to be reasonable requests for someone who is concerned about reputation. But I don't understand why she is going for 5 and 6, and it is 5 and 6 that she is talking about going to court over. And she must realise that publishers assets (not company ones) are at risk. That's the bit I don't get, why someone would do that, when the apologising bit has been agreed. Maybe I am missing something.

Whilst I agree with bloss to a degree, you have to wonder why she has become so terribly hurt and upset by what has been said on this website, but is apparently unconcerned by what is being said on, e.g., the Guardian website. There is some pretty horrid stuff posted on there, but not a whimper of protest from GF.

Is it because Mumsnet is vulnerable financially, whereas the Guardian has some pretty deep coffers to fight any attempt at censorship?

I think blaming MNers for this is extremely unfair.

If anyone is going to get emotional, it is MOTHERS who have very strong opinions on the rights and wrongs of how to bring up children. You want experts who feel strongly about their specialist area? Here's several thousand of them!

Very good post Bloss, and have to agree.

Personally, I have absolutely no problem in understanding how to discuss her methods without getting libellous. You say that you think the method is, for instance, ineffective or damaging to the child or whatever. And you refrain from imputing motives to her of which you know nothing, and making direct personal attacks. Easy peasy. Except that many people simply cannot control themselves.

However, that is really by the by. The real issue is this dispute NOW. As tempting as it is to get all pugnacious and so on, can I point out that it seems to me that GF's decision MUST be highly emotional. As it has been pointed out on here, it will do great damage to her if she were to pursue it. And the fact that (as we all agree) she has made this situation worse and not simply shrugged off what was, admittedly, a long stream of puerile and vitriolic abuse only goes to show (IMHO) that behind this is a person who is genuinely hurt. But I'm not surprised at all that she has reacted this way. I don't think that by publishing a book on sleep and feeding patterns, one necessarily expects to be up for attacks like, say, Tony Blair or something.

Anyway, a good lawyer never EVER advises their client to litigate. Certainly not in a case like this. So, like Anchovy, I am skeptical that this will end up in court. However, the best way to ensure it would do so would be to up the ante in the fight, so that it might be driven at her end by emotion and not pragmatism. Clients frequently ignore their lawyers' advice because they feel strongly about it, even if it's not the wisest course of action. The more we react on here, the more we drive her into a corner where she is angry, hurt and can't back down without losing face. Of course she is seeking damages for what has been said about her. She's feeling very bruised and battered. And this place simply hasn't let up on her - and I don't mean just since this thing erupted. I've been on this site longer than most and it has made regular appearances as long as I've been here, with the nastiness only gathering intensity over time.

I really think the best thing for MN is if we all go quietly away and leave it. They know we support them and they know that we will do what we can to keep MN above water. But I am sympathetic to both sides and think it's really really sad and awful that it has come to this. And frankly, I think the lack of self-restraint (as opposed to self-censorship) from some of US has caused this problem for Justine, Carrie, Rachel et al. Exercising some now would be the kindest thing we could do.

And I am not martianbishop . Maybe we're from a neighbouring planet though?

www, will email you later.

I'm quite new on here, and missed all the GF threads, but this all seems very extreme. Mumsnet is really helpful if you need some unbiased (usually!) advice.
I am an (ex) lawyer too, and would agree with all anchovy says!! I did some libel many years ago and we always told aggrieved clients that the fair comment defence meant all the criticism would be rehashed over and over and would probably ruin their rep much more! i spent the first two years of my career writing stroppy letters, lawyers just LOVE them!! Can't see it playing well in the press, rich parenting guru v mums......

ditto to anchovies post

Blimey, have just caught up..

Am really disappointed at the latest twist. Very very sad and angry on MN's behalf. I feel like emailing her and asking her what she hopes to achieve.

MoistVonLipWig

"Whatever happened to free speech? We are a parenting website - we have to be able to discuss things relating the UK's best-selling childcare guru, surely? We think that's a thing worth fighting for."

As usual Justine, you sum it up so well. If I can help PR wise I'd be more than happy to (not that I think you'd need it).

I am not Martian

As a previous GF devotee and someone who has always defended her and her methods in the past I am very very disapointed in this.

It is making me totally reconsider my opinions.

Anchovy- I was of the impression that libel cases don't often get to court, because they settle beforehand. Do you know what sort of figures are involved in those settlements? (I have no idea, but am genuinely interested).

There is a journo on here I am sure from years ago - can whoever you are not make this into a huge story so the world gets to see what is happening - we could even ask her for her side of the astory so as not to seem biased.

WWW - honestly, I wouldn't feel too worried if I were you.

FACT: Lawyers like to write stroppy letters to put the wind up people.

FACT: Very few libel matters ever come to court. Libel cases carry a huge reputational risk for the claimant in anything other than the clearest imaginable circumstances.

I honestly can't imagine what a claim by gF would say. "A bunch of parents disaparged my methods and there was a bit of swearing. I am therefore libelled and my reputation ruined. Obviously I joined in on at least one occasion and they did publish an apology, retract threads and put out guidelines on what to say about me, but I will not rest until I get a large financial settlement".

Sigh. The thing I find saddest about this is that I always liked GF and actually her books gave me a huge amount of help when I really needed it. I thought her sleeping pattern advice particularly was good (could take or leave the advice about ironing down tags on baby-gro's, but there you go) and both my DCs are what I wuld call "Gina-lite" babies. The thing that has lowered her reputation with me is her approach to this, not anything anyone has said on here.

But am offline v shortly! It's late, I'm tired.

Martian, you can email me on wickedwaterwitch at google mail dot com