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Secondary education

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Secondary Appeal

112 replies

gillybean2 · 18/06/2010 10:19

My ds's secondary school appeal is on Monday and I'm after some help please! If you can help on any of the issues below, or give me any further arguments I can bring up, I would very much appreciate it. This is long I'm afraid, hope you can make it to the end...

  1. I understand that I am meant to be given 10 working days notice of the appeal and that the admissions authority case must arrive no later than 7 working days before the hearing.

I did tick the box of the form saying I agree to less than 14 days notice of the appeal hearing. However I assumed I would get notification and then if an earlier date was available I would be informed of this.
But I have been waiting for months for details!
The school advised several weeks ago (after me asking) that appeals would probably be held on 21&22 June and confirmation of this would be sent. So they knew this date ages ago. Why did they then choose to wait till a week to go before officially informing me!

Secondly I spoke to the school again last week as had not received anything. They assured me the authority had sent it out. I actually received the documents on Monday 14th, and our appeal date is on Monday 21st.
How strongly can I argue that they have not fulfilled their requirements of 7 working days notice, and therefore have not followed procedure and my ds should get a place as a result!?

  1. The statement from the admissions authority states the total capcity of the school is set at 1248, and numbers in any one year group is 216. They then list the current and expected numbers for each year as follows: Yr 7 216 Yr8 214 Yr9 217 Yr10 195 Yr11 216 Sixth Form 206 (112+94) Total 1264

I know they have had to accept a child who have won an appeal in the past (the friend coming with me won her ds's appeal). And the numbers show (Yr9) that they can accomodate an extra child.
So on a year by year basis, and given they've set a precedent in the past, I am arguing that they can clearly accomodate an extra child.

The sticking point is that they are over their total capacity numbers. However this is because of the sixth form.
How should I tackle this?

Last year the sith form numbers were 171 (98+73). So the children moving up has gone down from 98 to 94. All the extra children are moving into the 6th form this year. In accepting so many extra sixth formers they have put themselves over their total capacity.

I calculate thet Yr 7 to Yr 11 at 216 students is 1080. As total capacity is 1248 they should only have 168 students in the sixth form. But they are taking in 206 in september!

So I'm thinking that the over subscribed sixth form has no relevance on an individual lower class taking one extra child.

Also I understand that school's get extra money for sixth form student's. So the school have choosen to go over capacity. They would not be if it was not for extra in the sixth form. Given that they are taking on that many sixth formers it leads me to assume the over capacity issue is either a non issue, or is not relevant to sixth form.

They then list general issues associated with excessive numbers as follows:

  1. Most classrooms are quite small and putting more than 27 in a class makes it very crammed & in some cases would be a health and safety issue.

** My arguments
a) You've done it before, and are currently.
b) Very cramped seems an overstatement. The agreed admitance is set at 216 so your classes must be able to adequately accept that number.
c) You must have considered the health and safety issues before as you have a class of more than 27 in year 9 already and have accepted that any risk is acceptable.

  1. Catering facilities are restricted and this results at congestion in eating areas at lunch & break times. In addition, time taken to provide in-house food for all students who require it, means that students are late for their afternoon lessons.

** My arguments
a) My ds is vegetarian and prefers to bring his own packed lunch to school. He will therefore have no impact on in-house food provision and will not be late for afternoon lessons.
b) Anyone who is late will not have been affected by my ds being there.
c) My ds will be eating his packed lunch right away, thus freeing up space in the eating area quickly allowing those queuing for food to have his seat back relatively quickly (sooner than they would get their dinner from the sounds of it).

  1. School lacks communal areas for students to congregate. Result is students spend much of lunch & beak times outside. Excessive student numbers leads to pressure on the management of lunchbreak.
    ** My arguments
    a) Yr 7 have their own outdoor area for break times. One more child in this area, particularly a well behaved child like my ds, will not be a burden on management of lunchbreak.
    b) IMO, where possible children should be encouraged to be outside at break time, so how is it a problem that they are outdoors?

  2. As a result of high overall numbers, the use of teaching rooms is extremely high. Results in some subjects having to use non-specialist rooms, eg library. And some subjects are taught in non-specialist areas eg science. This indicates that shortage of teaching space is not in one particular area, but is a general problem caused by the additional pressures resulting from excessive students in school.

** My arguments
a) The excessive students are entirely as a result of sixth form.
b) One additional child in a class will not have any affect on this issue. The class would already have had to use a non specialist area. Therefore this argument does not prejudice the other children if my child is accepted.
c) You have an additional child in Yr 8 (going into Yr 9), so you have already worked out how to accomodate an additional child in one clasee when necessary.

It summaries with a note:
Whilst we are sorry to have to deny your child a place, the inclusion of your child into a year group that is full would prejudice the efficient use of resources and the quality of education to students at school.

** My argument would be that one additional child in a year group would not unduly prejudice the rest of the students in that year group, for the reasons stated above.

If you made it this far I thank you! If you have then I am hoping that you can also help with advice or additional arguments please.

Many thanks
Gilly

OP posts:
LimaCharlie · 28/06/2010 12:45

Have been lurking thus far Gilly but feeling frustration on your behalf!

Really hoping that you have won and get to hear very very soon

clam · 28/06/2010 11:35

This is unfair. The appeals are done, they should put you out of your misery as soon as possible.

sue41 · 28/06/2010 11:32

Agony!!

PixieOnaLeaf · 28/06/2010 11:30

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Message withdrawn

gillybean2 · 28/06/2010 11:29

Postman caught me outside the doctor's surgery on way back from shops as he had a parcel for me. No letter though...

OP posts:
PixieOnaLeaf · 28/06/2010 11:27

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gillybean2 · 28/06/2010 10:29

Postman never comes earlier than 11. And not always then either.

Have to pop out to shops now, so hopefully should have been by the time I get home. Though as I said before post out here is always later than it should be so doubt letter will come today even...

OP posts:
clam · 28/06/2010 10:23

So, if there are only two schools with spare places, how are they going to accommodate all those on appeal? Or are they technically allotted to one of those other schools?
Didn't you say that you'd refused that place already though? In which case, if there are others who've done the same thing, then the authorities haven't got enough places to go round, which means they'll have to squeeze some in to the oversubscribed ones. Result!
What time does the post arrive?

gillybean2 · 28/06/2010 09:48

Been on the phone this morning but no-one able to help with when letters will arrive.

The appeals answerphone message says they don't give results of appeals out over the phone.

Phoned allocated school, explained he wasn't coming today and why. Was told they could make sure he was in different class and lesson's to other child (I had already discussed this with lower school head) but that obviously they couldn't stop them meeting up in breaks between lessons and before/after school. Which is exactly why this is an issue!

Rang the waiting lists number again and was told they haven't heard re appeals yet either, note on file saying letters would be sent 25th but they've not received yet.

Asked for info on which schools in area have spaces, only 2 schools actually have places (plus the originally allocated catchment school which he is not going to under any circumstances). Was told he could go back on waiting list for 4th choice school at same position he was before we came off due to offer of 3rd choice school though. But he was near the bottom of that list anyhow and it's still long.

Did have a chat with ds last night about what to do if we didn't get place. He said he'd rather stay home and have me teach him (even though in his words - I would give him really hard work to do!)

Actually I'm thinking that the first HE I'd do would be a geography field trip to somewhere (anywhere!) for a couple of weeks!
Main issue with that is that as a lone parent I wouldn't be able to continue working in the long term, and would have to go on JSA, but I couldn't actually look for work while HE, except maybe evenings, and then I'd have child care issues...

Come on postman, I need to know one way or the other so I can make some decisions here!

OP posts:
belledechocolatefluffybunny · 27/06/2010 23:20

Hi Gilly. It sounds so stessful for you all and I really do hope that your son gets a place. It sounds like you had a very strong argument. I really do hope you recieve good news tomorrow.

clam · 27/06/2010 23:08

What a nightmare. I suppose though that this is why it's not necessarily a good idea for appellants to attend an induction day before knowing for certain ifbthey'be been successful. It really has got his hopes up and if, god forbid, he is turned down then it's going to seem even worse. And statistically, a fair few of those kids are going to be disappointed.
Let's hope the news is good tomorrow.

PixieOnaLeaf · 27/06/2010 17:57

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sue41 · 27/06/2010 16:39

In Barnet we have the secondary admissions team and you can find the number on their web site - your local authority should have something similar. We also have a 'choices'
(Ha Ha) team who should be there who can offer advice.

gillybean2 · 27/06/2010 14:30

Hi Sue, and all. Thanks, I appreciate knowing that you're waiting to hear too and will post as soon as I know.

I fell asleep on the sofa again last night, woke up at 3am and been awake ever since. Can't seem to get anything done either, so worried still.

I asked ds yesterday why he had told people we had won appeal even though we didn't know yet. He said at the open day the headteacher had said well done to them all for getting a space at the school. So he thought he must have a space now. I guess that was part of his welcome speech and he hadn't thought ds (and possibly the other appeal children there) would take it literally.

I also asked him what we should do if we didn't win the appeal and he said he didn't know and then got all upset. So I said we didn't need to talk about it now and will wait till after we hear to talk about it if we need to then. Really hoping we don't need to talk about it, but starting to feel less positive now.

I've decided there's no point trying to persuade him to go to the introduction day at the currently allocated school as he is adament he won't go now he know's the bully is going to it.

Been reading up on HE as it seems that, and possibly a late appeal on second choice school, are the only actual options should this appeal not succeed.

Wondering who I can phone to ask tomorrow if the letter still hasn't come. Will try the school I guess to see if they've heard yet, but the admission's lady isn't in on monday's...

OP posts:
sue41 · 26/06/2010 12:00

Checking regularly and sharing your tension....

gillybean2 · 26/06/2010 11:47

Been out this morning, just got home, as expected no post....

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gillybean2 · 26/06/2010 06:07

Still not sleeping. Postman doesn't come till late here too.
I doubt the letter will come today regardless, always takes longer out here to get stuff.

My ds was meant to be going for a 2 hour introduction at his allocated school on monday. Now he knows the bully is going to be there too he's saying he doesn't want to go to it. Even though one of his good friends is going. If I can't persuade him to go for two hours what hope do I have of the next five years!?

Plus he's already been telling people we've won the appeal. A mum came up and congratulated me, when I said I hadn't heard yet and how had she heard she said ds had told her when she'd asked him.
He's really pinning his hopes on this. I don't know how he'll take it if we don't succeed

OP posts:
PixieOnaLeaf · 25/06/2010 11:50

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Message withdrawn

janeyjampot · 25/06/2010 11:34

With our appeal the Head knew first - he had a list on Friday night but we didn't get the letter until Saturday.

Completely understand the hair tearing! With mine it was weight gaining. Just joined the gym to try to get rid of 3 months of anxiety eating!

admission · 25/06/2010 10:43

Gillybean,
The LGO is the local government ombudsman. They would be the resposnible body to appeal to if you believe that the admission appeal had been subject to maladministration. That is not that you got the wrong answer from the appeal panel but that you felt thatt here was something about the appeal process that was wrong or that the appeal panel did wrong.
I would say the head inviting children who were appealing for the school but not accepted met that criteria as they have given an impression to parents and more importantly to the pupils that they will get a place.
The bad news is that if the LGO agree with you it does not mean that you get a place, the LGO can only direct that a second appeal hearing takes place at which you can obviously bring up this situation.
But I would be thinking positively that you are going to get an outcome from the appeal of an offer of a place.

gillybean2 · 25/06/2010 09:32

Well I just rang the waiting list to find out his position, and it's not changed. So either no-one has succeeded at appeal or the results aren't out yet.
Seems there is no emoticon

OP posts:
janeyjampot · 25/06/2010 08:30

Yes, I'm checking several times a day for news! Mine took 8 days to come - by the end I was in tears at the slightest provocation, and waking at 4am every morning.

It can't be much longer now....

sue41 · 25/06/2010 08:08

Hope you don't have to wait all through to next week. Still keeping everything crossed for you.

gillybean2 · 25/06/2010 08:00

I was told at school yesterday by a couple of mum's 'you're not sleeping are you, we can tell' and tbh I usually look tired so I must look extra dreadful right now!

And I still have the weekend minimum to get through before I hear. judging by how late the last lopt of letters came I'm really doubtful it will turn up on monday even.

What is the LGO if I need to appeal to them?

OP posts:
sue41 · 24/06/2010 10:14

Hi admission

I think you are right - I did raise issue of space and as your previously have advised I think this helps but is not the main reason.
I am v. happy and grateful for the outcome and your input has been really helpful over the last few weeks.

Hopefully we will have good news for Gillybean2 v. soon.