Please or to access all these features

Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Secondary Appeal

112 replies

gillybean2 · 18/06/2010 10:19

My ds's secondary school appeal is on Monday and I'm after some help please! If you can help on any of the issues below, or give me any further arguments I can bring up, I would very much appreciate it. This is long I'm afraid, hope you can make it to the end...

  1. I understand that I am meant to be given 10 working days notice of the appeal and that the admissions authority case must arrive no later than 7 working days before the hearing.

I did tick the box of the form saying I agree to less than 14 days notice of the appeal hearing. However I assumed I would get notification and then if an earlier date was available I would be informed of this.
But I have been waiting for months for details!
The school advised several weeks ago (after me asking) that appeals would probably be held on 21&22 June and confirmation of this would be sent. So they knew this date ages ago. Why did they then choose to wait till a week to go before officially informing me!

Secondly I spoke to the school again last week as had not received anything. They assured me the authority had sent it out. I actually received the documents on Monday 14th, and our appeal date is on Monday 21st.
How strongly can I argue that they have not fulfilled their requirements of 7 working days notice, and therefore have not followed procedure and my ds should get a place as a result!?

  1. The statement from the admissions authority states the total capcity of the school is set at 1248, and numbers in any one year group is 216. They then list the current and expected numbers for each year as follows: Yr 7 216 Yr8 214 Yr9 217 Yr10 195 Yr11 216 Sixth Form 206 (112+94) Total 1264

I know they have had to accept a child who have won an appeal in the past (the friend coming with me won her ds's appeal). And the numbers show (Yr9) that they can accomodate an extra child.
So on a year by year basis, and given they've set a precedent in the past, I am arguing that they can clearly accomodate an extra child.

The sticking point is that they are over their total capacity numbers. However this is because of the sixth form.
How should I tackle this?

Last year the sith form numbers were 171 (98+73). So the children moving up has gone down from 98 to 94. All the extra children are moving into the 6th form this year. In accepting so many extra sixth formers they have put themselves over their total capacity.

I calculate thet Yr 7 to Yr 11 at 216 students is 1080. As total capacity is 1248 they should only have 168 students in the sixth form. But they are taking in 206 in september!

So I'm thinking that the over subscribed sixth form has no relevance on an individual lower class taking one extra child.

Also I understand that school's get extra money for sixth form student's. So the school have choosen to go over capacity. They would not be if it was not for extra in the sixth form. Given that they are taking on that many sixth formers it leads me to assume the over capacity issue is either a non issue, or is not relevant to sixth form.

They then list general issues associated with excessive numbers as follows:

  1. Most classrooms are quite small and putting more than 27 in a class makes it very crammed & in some cases would be a health and safety issue.

** My arguments
a) You've done it before, and are currently.
b) Very cramped seems an overstatement. The agreed admitance is set at 216 so your classes must be able to adequately accept that number.
c) You must have considered the health and safety issues before as you have a class of more than 27 in year 9 already and have accepted that any risk is acceptable.

  1. Catering facilities are restricted and this results at congestion in eating areas at lunch & break times. In addition, time taken to provide in-house food for all students who require it, means that students are late for their afternoon lessons.

** My arguments
a) My ds is vegetarian and prefers to bring his own packed lunch to school. He will therefore have no impact on in-house food provision and will not be late for afternoon lessons.
b) Anyone who is late will not have been affected by my ds being there.
c) My ds will be eating his packed lunch right away, thus freeing up space in the eating area quickly allowing those queuing for food to have his seat back relatively quickly (sooner than they would get their dinner from the sounds of it).

  1. School lacks communal areas for students to congregate. Result is students spend much of lunch & beak times outside. Excessive student numbers leads to pressure on the management of lunchbreak.
    ** My arguments
    a) Yr 7 have their own outdoor area for break times. One more child in this area, particularly a well behaved child like my ds, will not be a burden on management of lunchbreak.
    b) IMO, where possible children should be encouraged to be outside at break time, so how is it a problem that they are outdoors?

  2. As a result of high overall numbers, the use of teaching rooms is extremely high. Results in some subjects having to use non-specialist rooms, eg library. And some subjects are taught in non-specialist areas eg science. This indicates that shortage of teaching space is not in one particular area, but is a general problem caused by the additional pressures resulting from excessive students in school.

** My arguments
a) The excessive students are entirely as a result of sixth form.
b) One additional child in a class will not have any affect on this issue. The class would already have had to use a non specialist area. Therefore this argument does not prejudice the other children if my child is accepted.
c) You have an additional child in Yr 8 (going into Yr 9), so you have already worked out how to accomodate an additional child in one clasee when necessary.

It summaries with a note:
Whilst we are sorry to have to deny your child a place, the inclusion of your child into a year group that is full would prejudice the efficient use of resources and the quality of education to students at school.

** My argument would be that one additional child in a year group would not unduly prejudice the rest of the students in that year group, for the reasons stated above.

If you made it this far I thank you! If you have then I am hoping that you can also help with advice or additional arguments please.

Many thanks
Gilly

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
sue41 · 12/06/2012 17:29

Hi Gillybean,
Did you get that place, just been thinking about everyone and logged in for the first time in ages, was pleased to see you were maybe going to get a place, but was it confirmed?
I do hope so,

Sue

gillybean2 · 23/09/2011 07:24

Hi Janeyjampot
I wouldn't of minded if you'd PM or asked me to update here sooner. So don't worry about such things if you feel the urge in future :)

I plan on phoning the head of year this morning. Ds and he have chatted a lot of the past year, so I kind of feel Hmm about telling him. He really has been very kind and helped ds enormously and always has time for a chat with him.

I think it would be easier if we knew for certain this place will be ds's and even a rough timeline, ie definitely this term. But I think it fairer to let him know now as the school is likely to be approached for info on ds from our prefered school.

It's all very exciting but I've told ds not to share the info with anyone in school just yet. At least he'll be able to go talk to the head of year once I've phoned him should he feel the need.

I've just got to work out how to pay for a completely new uniform and PE kit and all the contributions to food/textiles etc that I've already paid out this year! Can I even get new school shirts at this time of year...

OP posts:
janeyjampot · 22/09/2011 21:59

Thanks for the update, Gillybean2 - I've often wondered what happened and when I've seen you on other threads I haven't liked to ask :)

I really hope this is the news you've been waiting for. Good luck with it!

gillybean2 · 22/09/2011 19:34

I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to update you all.
Ds ended up going to the allocated school and as I knew would happen has not enjoyed it and hates school and has struggled to form friendships. The bully from primary made the first week or so pretty awful, but that was quickly dealt with after my talking with the head of year.

Ds has asked constantly all last year when he could move to the other school and was miserable when term started again going into year 8 :(

I was hopeful of a place at the start of this year as I was told just before the summer holidays that they thought a space may be coming up but didn't know for certain or when. Ds was third on the waiting list at this point.

Fast forward to today and got a call saying that they didn't have a confirmed date yet but they expect a space to come up soon and were we still interested... Absolutely! says me.

So I have an appointment on tuesday to see the head of year with ds. They've asked if they can approach his current school to find out what streams he's in etc. This all sounds very positive doesn't it...?

So I'm hoping that he will finally get a place this term, maybe even by half term. Ds is thrilled too and can't wait to go.

Such a shame he's lost a year by being at the other school. The head of year and his form teacher there have been brilliant, but it simply isn't the right school for ds. I've always made it clear to them that ds will go to the other school as soon as a place comes up there. I'm going to ring the head of year tomorrow to let him know the situation.

I'm sort of nervous still that this might still fall through. But they wouldn't have asked us to come in for an appointment unless ds was going to get the space would they?

OP posts:
PixieOnaLeaf · 13/07/2010 18:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

prh47bridge · 13/07/2010 13:52

I'm waiting expectantly Gillybean!

Blondemoment - What was your case? Also, was there anything in the way the appeal hearing was conducted that you were unhappy with?

aseriouslyblondemoment · 13/07/2010 10:02

hi gillybean was wondering how you were doing
am glad to hear that you're now being able to deal with all the other outstanding bits n bobs in life as it does reach a point where everything else just seems to slide
are you managing to sleep any easier?
i can wholly identify with your situ as i'm going thru this as well with my ds1,i'm also a LP(have a dp but he doesn't live with us)
my ds' allocated school is my worst nightmare come true without going into too many details he has already been targeted twice by bullies on his induction days
have yet to hear anything from the school
i haven't approached the LGO as i didn't believe that they would consider my case was strong enough,nobody won their appeal
am pondering my next move
please continue to post...we can hold each other's hands thru this

gillybean2 · 13/07/2010 09:30

Hi all

Thanks, yes I will be going to the LGO and will be in touch with you shortly phr47, thanks for your kind offer.

I have been trying to catch up on some of the many things that haven't been done the last few months. School fete was on friday so tht is now over with. And yesterday morning I was free for a couple of hours and got holiday club booked, car insurance sorted out, MOT booked etc.
Also rang the allocated school and they are taking him for a quick tour on Thursday.

Have to say I wasn't overly impressed with the lady I spoke to. I know they are doing us a favour and made it clear I did appreciate they were going out of their way to do this for him and thank her for organising. I did ask if I could speak to someone re the issues and she was all kinds of vague and said I could mention it to the teacher who would be showing ds round, but he did already know.

They obviously knew who ds was because she repeated some of the info I had given at parents evening about the bully child, including his name and the name of the school we appealled (I did tell them at the time).
But this time she said they couldn't guarantee they wouldn't be in same classes but would try their best to arrange. I also asked if they could soeak to ds and make sure he knew who he could speak to and where he should go should there be any issues at school. She said the teacher showing him round would be the one he could go to and they would show him where to go, but that he could only go there in lunch time, not during school itself.

Anyhow. As I said not overly impressed with reaction or what they're offering to reassure him so far. And being told by friend that I should do what her neighbour did which was refuse to start there and insist only a place at 1st choice school is good enough. Her neighbour did that a couple of years ago and was given a place the next day. I said to her the difference is that in that year no-one won their appeal and they are 2 children over already becaue of appeal. Plus I know one lady at the appeal doesn't have a school for her dd as she rejected allocated school and is on waiting for two others. She is also closer so will get offered place ahead of us.

Really reluctant to go and buy uniform etc. Don't want this school, it was only ever going to be a waiting place till a place came up at 1st choice. So finding it really hard to be enthusiastic to ds about it, though am trying.

Anyhow, git to rush off to work now. Will be in touch to sort out letter to LGO.

Ogh I did get a further letter appologising for the error re the school name which was a typo and they have now corrected and resent letter. All same except the name is now correct. So still no details on it.

OP posts:
prh47bridge · 09/07/2010 00:20

I'm still here if you want to go to the LGO. But I agree that you need to work on the basis that you are sending your son to the allocated school. Anything you get through the LGO or the waiting list is a bonus.

belledechocolatefluffybunny · 08/07/2010 23:22
Blush
PixieOnaLeaf · 08/07/2010 23:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

belledechocolatefluffybunny · 08/07/2010 23:05

Gilly. I think that you are at the point where you have worked so hard, you have tried and tried for your son and it's not worked. This isn't because of you, there is nothing else that you can do and with the best meaning in the world, you need to step back before you make yourself ill and send him to his allocated school. No school is perfect and you never really know how good or bad a school is until your child is there so I think that you need to give it a chance, go and have a look around with your son if you can, chat to the head. Stay on the waiting list though.

If my mum had done for me what you have done for your son I'd have been so proud.

PixieOnaLeaf · 08/07/2010 23:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

curlymom · 08/07/2010 22:52

gillybean2 I am sorry you didnt get the school you wanted. I have recently been through the same thing. We worked our socks off and got ours but we had many many points in our favour. Please dont give up, stay on the waiting list and keep in touch with the school. Good luck in the future.

gillybean2 · 07/07/2010 04:18

Hi all
thanks for your support
Too much to deal with at the moment and not sleeping much either.

Had an important deadline at work which had to be met, and got the school fete on friday which I'm meant to be organising.

Will be in touch with you pr47, soon as I can get my head round everything. Really can't think straight on much at all right now.

OP posts:
sue41 · 05/07/2010 10:52

I am still here watching and hoping for you.

If you haven't been to the allocated school, do visit - the one we were allocated used to have a bad reputation, but when I visited it was much improved and we had also started to talk to our DD as if she was going to prepare her as several people had advised on this forum.

Still keeping my fingers crossed, you seem to have a lot of good help and information from admission and others, again Good Luck,

Sue

admission · 03/07/2010 22:53

For your own sanity you need to make some decisions.
The first has to be that your son is going to the allocated school as of now, no home education, that is simply not a sensible option. No arguement, no discussion that is the school he is going to. Follow that through so that everything is organised.
As a total separate decison and without mentioning it to your son do as PRH has suggested and speak to the LGO. If anything positive comes from it then that is a bonus but assume that it will not succeed.

PixieOnaLeaf · 03/07/2010 09:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

prh47bridge · 03/07/2010 09:21

You won't force the LA's hand by refusing the allocated school. Unless the LA was breaking the codes, the fact that someone got a place the next day when the LA was told they were home educating would have been purely coincidence - they do happen sometimes! Turning down the allocated place certainly won't help you with the LGO. If the LGO orders a further appeal, turning down the allocated place may actually damage your position - the panel may feel you are trying to blackmail them. Whilst panels are supposed to put such feelings aside, they are only human.

Referring the case to the LGO does not commit you to accepting a place at your preferred school if you win. The most likely outcome from an LGO referral is a fresh appeal. Even if an appeal awards you a place you can still turn it down and stick with the allocated school. You don't lose anything by referring the case to the LGO. I can't guarantee that going to the LGO will be successful but it is worth a try.

If you do go to the LGO, I would start by ringing them - the phone number is on their website. Don't be put off by the person who takes your message - they are junior staff and don't have a full understanding of the rules around admissions cases. I have known them tell people that there is no chance of the LGO getting involved when in fact the parent has a very good case. Ignore any advice they give you and, if they try to put you off, insist that you want this case to go ahead.

Shortly after contacting them you will be given a reference number (IIRC you get given this in the initial telephone call) and told who will be dealing with your case. This is the point at which you should send in your written submission.

I'm happy to help with your submission in any way I can. You can contact me direct by clicking on "Contact poster" or by emailing [email protected]. If you use the hotmail address, say so here - I don't check it very often.

clam · 03/07/2010 09:01

Hi Gilly.
Noted the timing of your last post! You really are pulling your hair out, aren't you? Poor thing.

Look, I don't know much about the legalities and processes of appeals and the LGO etc... (panelmember and prh are your people for that) but from an outsider looking in, I would think that it might be very foolish to turn down the place at the allocated school.
Why not give it a go? You can always opt out and try home-edding (sp?) later if it doesn't work out, but it looks like you won't have the option of the other way round, if places there are also over-subscribed.
With regard to the loo issues.... does that not show that the staff are taking behaviour issues seriously and taking action? I reckon most schools (even those perceived as desirable) have similar issues, although I bet they don't advertise them.
And re: this other child who bullies your son. You haven't gone into the details of what's gone on before on this thread and if it's on another one, then I've missed it, so apologies if I appear to be trivialising it, but you've been told he would be in a different form. There are going to be so many other kids and distractions going on in a new school, that it's very likely that your son will no longer register on his radar. Primary school is much more insular, and class dynamics have a much higher prominence. All that is more diluted at secondary, as your son has a much greater chance of avoiding him.
You can turn this around for your son, IF you sell it to him right, as a positive thing.
And carry on with the action/waiting lists etc... in the background.
Hope you can get some peace of mind soon.

gillybean2 · 03/07/2010 04:48

I'm going insane, really don't know what to do for the best and so tired from lack of sleep.

Was chatting briefly with one of the teachers at our school. Up till now I thought she had choosen the catchment secondary school for her ds as she had previously said that he had wanted to go where his friends were and he had worked really hard for his SATS to prove to her he would work hard if he went to that school and so she had agreed to it.

A couple of times since then she has mentioned she's not too happy with what's going on at the school, and I've asked her if she would consider moving her ds and she's always said something non commital, like we'll see how it goes, or that's still an option.

But today when I asked her if she'd thought any more about moving him she said she had no choice but to keep him there. I asked why she didn't ring round the schools to find another place, and she said that her ds had been on the waiting list for the school my ds has been allocated for 3 years now and she knew other people who were on waiting lists too who were trying to move their children and couldn't.

So now I'm thinking that we've been lucky to have been allocated a place at this school really when other people are trying to get there and can't.

One of the girls at work also said that they hadn't had any choice of secondary (not this area).

But then on the other hand I spoke to another parent about the allocated school, and she mentioned about the toilet doors (which I already knew about). The toilet doors have been removed so teachers walking past can see what is going on in the toilets as there have been a number of incidents. She also told me one of the reason they'd put so many cctv camera up at the school was to stop the children wandering off into town between lessons and they now also have a member of staff posted between lessons to help avoid this too.

It really doesn't inspire me with confidence in the allocated school, but it is still a better option than the catchment school.

And from what the first mum was saying it seems it may be some considerable time before spaces come up on waiting lists, so if I go with home ed then it could well be years rather than months before a space comes up. So would definitely have to pack in my job.

But then I've also been told of one parent who refused to accept the allocated school, child wasn't at school the first day, council rang parents to find out why and parents repeated they were home ed until a space came up, and she was given a space at preferred school next day.

So I'm thinking that by refusing the allocated school it may force their hand. On the other if we refuse it it may not and then I'll be stuffed in terms of options as they could then give the space to a child on the waiting list which would leave only the catchment school option and he's not going there under any circumstances.

My ds seems quite happy at the moment with the idea of home ed. Though he is worried that the police will come knocking. This is because I told him a few times when he was refusing to go to school that if he didn't I would get in trouble and the police could be sent round even. I'm not sure how well I could manage for to do this for an extended period of time though. Short term yes I could manage, but there is so much to learn/teach and I'm no expert on many things and I feel like I'd end up spending all my time researching lessons etc and have no time for anything else. Especially if I was working 3 days a week still.

I really don't know what to do here, and am running round in circles getting no-where.

I want to do a letter to the LGO, but I don't know where to start. I can get an address of the internet I guess, but am so worried that this is going to be the last slim chance I don't want to mess up any letter so don't know where to start on it. But I'm panicking that I don't have enough time to sort this before the autum term starts.

And there's only 3 weeks left of term so if I'm going to try and persuade ds to give the allocated school a go then I've got to arrange a meeting with head of lower school and have ds go around school to see it (He's never actually ever been there, not even for open evening). I went to an open evening 2 years ago and the Yr 7 intake parents evening thing. Neither of those inspired me very much I have to say.

It's all so difficult and I don't know what to do for the best anymore. Or where to start really

OP posts:
clam · 02/07/2010 19:29

Well, no, prh, I guess not, except that they were never going to offer all 13 appeals a place. And it seems they've decided they did have space for 2, which might be how they justify it. It's unfortunate for gilly that it's another 2 who are deemed to be more "deserving." Hope they didn't use her arguments though!

prh47bridge · 02/07/2010 14:14

Just realised, in my last post I said "Cory" when I should have said "Clam". Sorry.

aseriouslyblondemoment · 02/07/2010 14:08

gillybean how are you doing?
have been watching this thread and was so sorry to hear about your current predicament
i'm in exactly the same boat as you right now so understand just how devastated and angry you're feeling
have you contacted the LGO yet?

admission · 01/07/2010 17:40

The reasons given are very flimsy and really should be in much more detail. There are plenty of legal cases to the LGO surrounding the letter detailing the outcome of cases. What would usually happen is that the LGO will refer back to the notes taken around the decisions taken. These may show that the decisions were all taken with good reasons and basically you have a lazy clerk who is not doing the job correctly. Alternatively there may be little or no notes of the decisions reached, hence the very general and unsatisfactory letter.

To get to the bottom of the situation you have no alternative but to go to the LGO and complain about the letter and what the ehad teacher allowed to happen over the open day.

Swipe left for the next trending thread