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Original poster

Moving to Steiner for Secondary School from State Primary

113 replies

WKMum · 21/04/2010 11:05

Hello!

Advice sought from all you very knowledgeable Mums and Dads out there!

I realize I may be opening a can of worms with this post, but I have tried to make my way through the various other Steiner threads on MN and, despite their being very long and rambling, very few of the posts seem to address my particular situation, so please forgive me for starting up another debate.

I am posting this in the Secondary School thread, because I am not interested in the whole Steiner Early Years 'To Read Or Not To Read' debate.

My DD is eight years old and in Y3 at our local state primary school. She is strong at the more 'creative' subjects, such as writing and drama, but her maths is poor and she is in the 'lower set'. (Personally, I have an issue with the idea of 'streaming' children as young as seven, as I think it gives their confidence a terrible knock, and only serves to dint their interest in the subject even further - but that is another discussion!)

We live in a GS area, and a large number of the children at DD's school will go on to GS. My daughter's teacher has indicated, however, that she is unlikely to pass the 11+. (Information I was given, rather than requested.) Although I appreciate it is early to make this call, and nothing is set in stone, I am nonetheless currently exploring the other options.

The one aim I have for my DD is that she is happy in her secondary school. Academic achievement is not the 'be all and end all' in my opinion, and I am not inclined to have her intensely coached to pass the 11+, as I know a lot of people around here do, just so she can then be at the bottom of a very large pile of very bright/pushed kids, which I think would just undermine her confidence.

My preference for her would be a small, non-selective indie, in which she can feel comfortably average in most subjects and have enough one-to-one attention to be encouraged to reach her full potential in the subjects she enjoys.

With this in mind, DH and I went to see our local Steiner school. I was impressed by the ethos and the way the children seemed happy and engaged with what they were doing, and the teachers seemed relaxed but in control. The facilities were also good - theatre, sports hall, library etc.

As I understand it, Steiner schools do vary a lot, but I would be very interested to hear from any Steiner parents or pupils (former or current) who have experienced the transition from state primary school to Steiner school at age 11 (i.e. mid-way through the Steiner 'Lower School'). Was it a difficult transition to make - particularly given that you would be joining a class of children and teacher who have been together from the age of seven? Did the school feel very different from state primary? Better or worse?

Also, how did the school approach GCSEs and 'A' Level preparation within the Steiner methodology? Do you feel you had adequate help and encouragement without being pressured?

This will probably make me sound like a hippie - even though there is not an incense stick to be seen in my house! - but I am a great believer in 'the journey' being just as important as the destination, and I am worried about my DD's character being 'crushed' by what I see as the high-pressured environment of the current educational model favoured in most UK state schools.

However, should my DD wish to take exams when she is older and ready to make that decision for herself, I would want her to be adequately prepared. I'd love to know from anyone whether they think the Steiner method would work in this regard.

Thanks so much for reading this post. I apologise that it's rather long, but I wanted to try to make clear the sort of feedback/advice I am looking for.

Could I kindly ask everyone to please avoid posting potentially libelous comments on this thread, as I know this is a highly-emotive subject and do not want to get MN into any trouble.

OP posts:
restlessnative · 27/04/2010 22:07

Steve - I've not been on any survivors' forums but I have read your comments on the Yahoo group Waldorf Critics and have seen how thoughtful and generous you are with your observations. Lovely to see you here.

Tizian · 27/04/2010 21:44

Understanding Waldorf Education: Teaching from the Inside Out by Jack Petrash, a Steiner Waldorf teacher with 25 years of experience goes to the heart of Steiner Waldorf education, beyond ideological arguments in one or other direction. Personally, I'd recommend it.

Walden · 27/04/2010 20:25

Hello WKMum,

Interesting thread and I'll try to comment on your initial question regarding the transition into a Steiner secondary school. By way of introduction, I've been a moderator at the international Waldorf Anthroposophy Steiner Survivors Only (WASSO) Yahoo Group for eight years and have oodles of experience in the pros and cons of Steiner education. Many years ago I was a very pro-Steiner school parent.

While I would agree with many of thoughtful posts here, I also suggest you look deeper than simply the Steiner secondary school philosophy. In order to understand the Steiner pedagogy it is imperative that you look at the whole system - from K up. While I am a critic of things Steiner, if it is a question of either/or, (conventional vs. Steiner) based on what you have written, I think the Steiner secondary school model is at least worth considering . . . but ONLY if you are fully aware of - and comfortable with - its Anthroposophical foundation.

I can tell you with certainty that a visit to the school will NOT help you understand the reality of the program. You will need to read and research the same material the teachers use as they work with students. You will need to understand how teachers work with what they call the "souls" of students as they incarnate. Granted, perhaps not all teachers follow the occult foundation to the letter, but it is important for you to understand the model. While your daughter might find the transition easy, it could also be a very confusing experience; many Steiner schools are quite insular and seem strange to newcomers.

The main complaint I've heard over the years with regards to Steiner secondary schools revolves around groupthink. Although you might be told that students aged 14+ (a key part of the incarnation) are encouraged to ask questions (as opposed to early years of following the authority of the teacher), students are often discouraged from thinking critically - especially if such thinking involves questioning the teacher.

Although there is less emphasis on heavy academics and testing in Steiner education (a good think IMO), it is usually a controlled system of guiding students through various stages of life as they incarnate. This is what teachers learn in their training and I urge you to do your own research before confusion/frustration sets it, something I see far too often from applicants to our confidential support group.

Steiner supporters are usually reluctant to share the foundation - or raison d?être of their movement; thus the ongoing controversy.I would be very careful with Wikipedia as it is monitored (and edited) 24/7 by a few mission-driven Anthroposophists. One or two of them also maintain other sites - Americans for Waldorf, etc. I highly recommend reading Steiner as that is what motivates teachers on their spiritual journeys with the children in their care.

Sorry that I don't have lots of time to engage in further discussion - I stumbled on this chat while researching something else and thought I'd add my 2 cents as one with years of experience. It seems there are also others here with experience. Hope this helps.

Best wishes to you and your daughter,
-Steve Walden

mathanxiety · 27/04/2010 19:35

If it's any help, I'm dealing with an 8yo DD at the moment who is very maths averse, but I have also dealt with her older sister, who hated all things school, and never cracked open a reading book except for books that she had to read until age 10, when she finally started buying into the whole school thing, after years of me pulling my hair out in frustration. She is now doing really well.

Part of what turned the older DD and the younger one off maths was the 'right' and 'wrong' aspect of it. With other subjects, especially art, they could express themselves and there was no right or wrong. For the same reason, they hated music lessons. Older DD was put off reading by the comprehension questions that accompanied the texts they read in school (again 'right' and 'wrong' answers) and by all the grammar they learned (more right and wrong). When older DD got to the point in school where creative writing and drama were introduced in English, and more logic and creativity (as opposed to getting sums and questions in the form of paragraphs) were required in maths, she started to like it a lot more. Plus the teacher had the class do book reviews on books that were over a certain length (and we found a long one she really loved); an opinion in a book review can't be right or wrong.

Younger DD is one of the youngest in her class, and she doesn't do very well with taking things impersonally. She really tries very hard, but experiences getting things wrong as a rejection and we have a cycle of frustration going on at the moment. It's a question for her, just as it was for her older sister, of developing maturity as much as developing mathematical skills.

Original poster
WKMum · 27/04/2010 18:58

Thanks Gnomes: your posts have been truthful and very helpful.

I'm not trying to wind up the thread: I really am genuinely very grateful to everyone who has contributed to it so far, and would certainly be happy to hear from anyone else whose children made the transition from state to Steiner at secondary level. There's no particular story that I want to hear, I'm just trying to get as broad a spectrum of opinions/experiences as possible to help us make an informed choice.

I am going to go away and have a good read and a good think for a couple of years and see where we're at when my DD hits 10 years old: there isn't much more I can do in the meantime.

Thanks again to all!

OP posts:
restlessnative · 27/04/2010 18:05

Self-washed hand-carded wool, you slacker!

No, I just meant that it might be easier for people to respond to your previous post if they didn't feel they ought to gear it to the initial question on this thread, which was a perfectly good question but which seems to have been answered - perhaps best by gnomes.

I know in the past people have avoided coming onto threads because posts were deleted & it seemed a hostile environment, or they didn't want to cause trouble for mumsnet (or irritate the people who said it had been 'done to death' or that everyone on Steiner threads is crazy.)

Lurkers' thread might be needed.

OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper · 27/04/2010 16:00

Hand-carded wool of course.
Not sure what you mean about the OP being simpler; and I suppose I can't judge as I fell for it, as you say, 'hook, line and sinker.'
Scary to think how blinkered I was, which is why I find it frustrating when real information is possibly falling on deaf ears.
Anyway, as WK says, she has the information now so what transpires is quite rightly at her own discretion.

restlessnative · 27/04/2010 15:20

I agree, the thread keeps being wound up (into a nice wool ball)

The fact I don't feel surprised anymore at that health & safety.. nonchalance is pretty telling.

Lady Perpetual, would it be better if there were a different thread with a simpler opening post?

OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper · 27/04/2010 14:25

Does anyone else get the impression the OP wants us all to shut up and just go away?

Yes, bullying and social cliques do happen in other schools, but at least there are strategies in place to deal with them and people in charge are answerable to some degree.
No child is expected to put up with it because that's his 'karma', and a parent's concern is unlikely to be poo-poo'd with 'oh, so and so's harmless, he's got a good heart.'
likewise, older children wouldn't be brought into a classroom to physically extricate a 'naughty' 9 yo hiding under the table. (Happened in my DS's class and I've since learned is common practise.
And there can't be many schools where, when the issue of making the grounds secure was raised by some parents, the comment from a senior member of staff was 'the angels will look after the children.'

gnomesrus · 27/04/2010 14:19

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Message withdrawn

Original poster
WKMum · 27/04/2010 13:48

Thank you for your very honest posts, Gnomes: I appreciate the directness of what you say and will certainly keep it all in mind.

I would not move my DD at the moment, since she is quite happy at her primary school, so I wouldn't want her to leave there before she has to.

Steiner is just one of many options we are considering, and I am perfectly prepared to accept that it will have negative aspects to it: that is why I came on this forum - for precisely these kind of insights. Of course, other schools also have negative aspects to them - bullying, pressure to do well in tests, gang culture, social cliques, etc - so it is a case of trying to find the best we possibly can for our DD from the options that are out there.

I am genuinely grateful to everyone who has posted and I wish all of your DCs every future success with their education.

OP posts:
restlessnative · 27/04/2010 13:38

WKMum - no worries, I just thought it was a bit unkind. But those who've been through such experiences are used to people belittling their concerns, so I expect nothing would surprise them.

What does 'enter into herself' mean? Where is she now?

Take it easy

restlessnative · 27/04/2010 13:24

Hello Gnomes

Yep, hook, line & sinker. My ds reminds me of this frequently. Fortunately there's a spell-check on his computer ;)

Everybody buys into it for good reasons, thinking it'll provide something they're usually able to create themselves. They ignore the signs that something's wrong, especially if their own dcs are OK or have a kind & capable teacher (this was our experience) But the moment the teacher changes or something goes wrong for their dc, odd stuff happens. Then people dig & find they weren't really told the truth about their dc's school, or they tell themselves it's their own fault, or they slip away.

Honesty is the important thing.

Original poster
WKMum · 27/04/2010 13:23

Dear RestlessNative and OLOPS: thank you very much for your posts.

Firstly, I'd like to say that I absolutely didn't wish to upset anyone with my comment about the subject of Steiner raising people's heartbeats. All I meant was that it seemed to be a subject people felt very strongly about one way or another. I have looked at only a few of the case studies on PLANS and none of the ones I have read so far mentioned any form of physical abuse of the abhorrent kind you allude to. Obviously, it goes without saying that such things are completely intolerable in any school whatsoever, and I would never EVER wish to imply otherwise. I can only apologise profusely to anyone that might have thought I meant that.

I realize that some people have had extremely negative experiences of Steiner, and I would never wish to belittle the pain this might have caused them and their families.

The allusion I made to the heartbeat was simply to do with something I had read about Steiner suggesting there was a fifth chamber in the heart - I genuinely meant it to be a throwaway quip and nothing more. So, once again, apologies if that was misinterpreted.

However, I think it is fair to say that while terrible things can happen in lots of different schools, that doesn't make all teachers terrible people. When I started this thread, I thought that might also be the case with Steiner schools - some may be better than others - and I simply wanted to try to get some information from people on their direct experiences of Steiner at secondary school level: what the transition from state to Steiner was like; whether it worked for them. I now have an enormous amount of information to read and digest about Steiner before we, as a family, come to any decision either way.

Secondly, I did make it clear in my original post how old my DD was and the fact that I was merely exploring all the options available to her at age 11, because it is quite obvious that it is still far too early to be making any final decisions regarding her future. I simply want to be as well-informed as possible to be able to help guide her through this transition period as smoothly as possible when the time comes.

Thanks for the link to the 11+ forum. I have lots of friends whose DCs have been through the 11+ in this part of the country, so I have a pretty good idea of what it entails. In this area, there are papers in VR, NVR and Maths, as well as a written paper - although this is only taken into consideration in the case of an appeal, as I understand it. I have borrowed copies of practice tests just to have a look at the level, and I have to say they seem pretty tough to me. Of course, once again, I am keeping an open mind about this. Children change and grow so much in a couple of years. If my DD decides that all her friends are sitting the 11+ and she wants to have a go, I will do all I can to support her. However, it seemed to make a lot of sense to me look at the other possibilities in our area as well.

(Incidentally, I would like to say that, although I don't really agree with it, I do understand why my DD's school teacher mentioned that she was unlikely to pass the 11+ - it's because so many people in this area do want their children to take it, so the teachers are under a lot of pressure to 'deliver' on this. She is actually very supportive of our decision to explore other options.)

Personally, I'm not really pro-tutoring and I'm certainly anti-coaching, which I see as a big distinction. However, DH felt it might help DD's confidence to have a little one-to-one time with a former maths teacher who lives down the road once a week, just so DD doesn't lose interest in learning about maths altogether. She has been very despondent about it since she was put in the 'bottom set' at school (something that, as I mentioned in my first post, I think is a very negative thing to do to young children) and she was often in tears about doing the weekly maths homework set by her school. I think I would call this form of tutoring 'hand-holding' rather than 'pushing', and it follows on from two years of trying to help her myself without success (DD usually stomps off in a terrible rage...)

You are right, Restless Native, I am asking a lot from a school and I realize that, almost certainly, whatever decision we come to in the end, we will wonder 'what if?' about all the other options we rejected.

Nearer the time, I will be taking my DD to see for herself all the schools we are considering, so that it can be a decision she enters into herself with our love and support. I just hope that, by then, I will have learnt enough to be able to do my best by her and set her off on a good footing for her next life journey.

Thanks again to all who have contributed to this discussion: I greatly appreciate all your advice, concern and interest.

OP posts:
gnomesrus · 27/04/2010 12:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

restlessnative · 27/04/2010 12:42

gnomerus sorry - posted at same time as you.

All I can add from my experience is that late-comers could at least read and write, which helps. But learning the meaning behind the pedagogy late can be particularly shocking, especially when parents realise that some bizarre decision made by a teacher is based on a dc's 'karma'.

restlessnative · 27/04/2010 12:32

Yes, you're right and a lot can change between yrs 3 & 5. The biggest problem for dcs in state primary schools is that they may not have covered the maths curriculum by the time they take 11+ exams, often in November.

Again, a great deal may change in education in the next few years - no one is sure how. There's always the possibility that the local community college will be the best bet after all, plus there appears to be a will to address what many teachers believe is an overtly exam-based culture.

The issue for Steiner schools remains the difficulty of finding teachers now that there's no state funded Steiner training course in the UK and other anthroposophical institutions are closing at a significant rate. I would be wary of entrusting a dc to a system that appears to be in free-fall.

gnomesrus · 27/04/2010 12:30

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OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper · 27/04/2010 11:35

11+ forum.
you can search for your area.

You could also phone your LEA who will tell you the exam format - no secrets - and Amazon have several books and practise papers, including 'Bond: A Parent's Guide to a Stress-Free 11+,'

OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper · 27/04/2010 11:27

I have to say, I hadn't realised your DD was so young.
In that case, I think her teacher was out of order to make a judgement on the likelihood of passing 11+.

And anyway, it's worth you finding out what the 11+ actually entails in your area before deciding on this.

This information is there in the public realm, past papers are available, and there is a very vocal forum - I will find a link for you.

In my area the 11+ exam is pure verbal reasoning.
This does include numerical and logical concepts, but not strictly in the form of sums as such.

FWIW, I have a DS in y4 and I wouldn't dream of starting prep for gs until y5 at the earliest, and then it will entail practising past papers and gradually going through the different 'types' of questions.

DS1 is in y10 at gs and DD y7.

restlessnative · 27/04/2010 10:13

Hmm.. absolutely right Lady Perpetual. Beautifully said.

There are good reasons why people are unusually wary of the Steiner methodology. And it's a bit unkind to call it 'raising heart rates'. Would you call the international reaction to events in certain Catholic institutions 'raised heartbeats?' and joke about it? (And there's no doubt that the Catholic Church in the UK takes this very seriously.)

Frankly WKMum, you're not making a lot of sense. First you say you're concerned that your dd wouldn't get through a maths 11+ exam and that she's 'getting one-to-one maths tutoring once a week with a lovely private teacher' - in itself not unusual with parents who'd like their dc to go to gs, even though you admit she's only in class 3.

Then you say you want a school where she can.. grow 'without feeling pressured to achieve anything other than internal well-being and happiness.' So why the maths tutoring now?

Personally, if all you're looking for from an educational establishment is 'internal well-being and happiness', I should think you're asking a very great deal from a school, it's teachers and the curriculum as well as missing the point of education. Even if a dc isn't 'academic' at 11 (in which case gs wouldn't be right) it's surprising how dc's can develop and achieve great results later with the support of school and home.

OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper · 27/04/2010 09:09

There is a place in which your DD can grow emotionally and spiritually and achieve internal well-being and happiness; it's called your home and the love and security of her family.

School is for education IMO, and as long as she's surrounded by kind, professional people and good friends, plus the support and care I'm sure you provide at home, she'll be fine.

Original poster
WKMum · 26/04/2010 23:41

Well, I must say thanks to everyone for posting all this useful, if conflicting, information. It is taking me a while to get through it all: certainly, the Steiner methodology seems to raise people's heart rates (maybe in the fifth chamber?!)

Personally, I was just trying to find a school not too far from where we live, in which my non-academic daughter might find a comfortable place to grow emotionally and spiritually without feeling pressured to achieve anything other than internal well-being and happiness.

TheCaty: I would be interested to hear more about your experience of Steiner schools: so few people posting mention their children's experiences of Steiner from age 11+, which is when we would be considering a move to Steiner.

Thanks so much to everyone!

OP posts:
restlessnative · 26/04/2010 22:43

I hope you don't feel guilty OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper

I don't agree - my impression is that nearly everyone on the US site PLANS (People for Legal and Nonsectarian Schools) has had experience of Steiner Waldorf education as a pupil, a parent or/and Waldorf teacher. Many have had years of experience. PLANS acts as a home for diverse stories and as information for parents or students who may be bewildered by their experiences. It contains a link to a private Steiner Survivors' Group so, far from setting out to scare, its aim is to support. Of course it isn't popular with its detractors but there are plenty of places to find positive Waldorf stories which nobody will try to stop you reading.

mathanxiety · 26/04/2010 17:22

FWIW, the Catholic Church considers Anthroposophy to be a religion, one of occult-based mysticism. It was condemned in 1919, with no change since.

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