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Moving to Steiner for Secondary School from State Primary

113 replies

WKMum · 21/04/2010 11:05

Hello!

Advice sought from all you very knowledgeable Mums and Dads out there!

I realize I may be opening a can of worms with this post, but I have tried to make my way through the various other Steiner threads on MN and, despite their being very long and rambling, very few of the posts seem to address my particular situation, so please forgive me for starting up another debate.

I am posting this in the Secondary School thread, because I am not interested in the whole Steiner Early Years 'To Read Or Not To Read' debate.

My DD is eight years old and in Y3 at our local state primary school. She is strong at the more 'creative' subjects, such as writing and drama, but her maths is poor and she is in the 'lower set'. (Personally, I have an issue with the idea of 'streaming' children as young as seven, as I think it gives their confidence a terrible knock, and only serves to dint their interest in the subject even further - but that is another discussion!)

We live in a GS area, and a large number of the children at DD's school will go on to GS. My daughter's teacher has indicated, however, that she is unlikely to pass the 11+. (Information I was given, rather than requested.) Although I appreciate it is early to make this call, and nothing is set in stone, I am nonetheless currently exploring the other options.

The one aim I have for my DD is that she is happy in her secondary school. Academic achievement is not the 'be all and end all' in my opinion, and I am not inclined to have her intensely coached to pass the 11+, as I know a lot of people around here do, just so she can then be at the bottom of a very large pile of very bright/pushed kids, which I think would just undermine her confidence.

My preference for her would be a small, non-selective indie, in which she can feel comfortably average in most subjects and have enough one-to-one attention to be encouraged to reach her full potential in the subjects she enjoys.

With this in mind, DH and I went to see our local Steiner school. I was impressed by the ethos and the way the children seemed happy and engaged with what they were doing, and the teachers seemed relaxed but in control. The facilities were also good - theatre, sports hall, library etc.

As I understand it, Steiner schools do vary a lot, but I would be very interested to hear from any Steiner parents or pupils (former or current) who have experienced the transition from state primary school to Steiner school at age 11 (i.e. mid-way through the Steiner 'Lower School'). Was it a difficult transition to make - particularly given that you would be joining a class of children and teacher who have been together from the age of seven? Did the school feel very different from state primary? Better or worse?

Also, how did the school approach GCSEs and 'A' Level preparation within the Steiner methodology? Do you feel you had adequate help and encouragement without being pressured?

This will probably make me sound like a hippie - even though there is not an incense stick to be seen in my house! - but I am a great believer in 'the journey' being just as important as the destination, and I am worried about my DD's character being 'crushed' by what I see as the high-pressured environment of the current educational model favoured in most UK state schools.

However, should my DD wish to take exams when she is older and ready to make that decision for herself, I would want her to be adequately prepared. I'd love to know from anyone whether they think the Steiner method would work in this regard.

Thanks so much for reading this post. I apologise that it's rather long, but I wanted to try to make clear the sort of feedback/advice I am looking for.

Could I kindly ask everyone to please avoid posting potentially libelous comments on this thread, as I know this is a highly-emotive subject and do not want to get MN into any trouble.

OP posts:
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JasonUmbrellabird · 12/11/2021 09:12

Ofsted do not understand Steiner schools. Have you a problem with that statement?

Coronateachingagain · 11/11/2021 22:56

@JasonUmbrellabird

Both my children were Steiner educated. I was worried for my first child when her neighbour's daughter who was 6 months older than her came back from school writing cursive and my daughter was writing one letter at a time. My daughter could barely read, but once she passed 7 she flew away with it and this year got a first class honors in history. My younger daughter got a distinction from Camberwell Art College. Ofsted are investigating and coming down hard on all Steiner schools at present because they have to tick boxes. Children shouldn't be put in boxes.
The last part of your message is not true. Anyone reading this should research properly all the numerous issues with the Steiner schools - Ofsted reports will be enough (rather sad) reading but plenty more out there to muse on.
JaffavsCookie · 11/11/2021 21:43

Bloody hell @JasonUmbrellabird
You are resurrecting the zombie of a zombie.
Most of this thread is 11 years old!

JasonUmbrellabird · 10/11/2021 22:29

Both my girls were accepted into the Brit school after a Steiner education aged 14. The headmaster asked 'do you have any more' he was so impressed, so there with big nobs on.

JasonUmbrellabird · 10/11/2021 22:24

Both my children were Steiner educated. I was worried for my first child when her neighbour's daughter who was 6 months older than her came back from school writing cursive and my daughter was writing one letter at a time. My daughter could barely read, but once she passed 7 she flew away with it and this year got a first class honors in history. My younger daughter got a distinction from Camberwell Art College. Ofsted are investigating and coming down hard on all Steiner schools at present because they have to tick boxes. Children shouldn't be put in boxes.

Strawberrybubblebath · 30/06/2017 22:49

Annetta I notice you have resurrected numerous xombie threads on Steiner schools (this is the fifth one I have come across tonight) I am interested to know why. Are you an ex teacher/pupil? At a school in direct competition with a Steiner school? It would be interesting to know.

Dancergirl · 30/06/2017 14:59

Grim reading nanetta

nanettawoman · 29/06/2017 14:17

Why has gnomesrus comment been removed? They try to silence critics but they can't silence Ofsted who have done an excellent report revealing the truth about Rudolf Steiner School Kings Langley. reports.ofsted.gov.uk/inspection-reports/find-inspection-report/provider/ELS/117631

Bundesliga · 15/03/2017 12:54

ZOMBIE THREAD ZOMBIE THREAD

👹

justputitoff · 15/03/2017 12:42

Not much help with the secondary question as we are not there yet, but my daughter joined a steiner school aged six, having done nearly two years in state primary (where she was fine, we just moved areas and I didn't like the look of the nearby state schools). She is now nine, loves school, her teacher is dedicated to her (very poorly paid) work, and she seems to be covering much the same academic subjects as her peers in the state and independent sector, just in a more imaginative and engaging way. No tests, no homework, lots of outdoor space and time.
So far I have no complaints - so her teacher believes in gnomes....well, I encouraged my daughter to believe in fairies and Father Christmas, I am sure she will realise (if she doesn't already) that they are not real. I don't get why people get so hot under the collar about steiner schools. Any school can be crap, home schooling can be patchy, you can be bullied in a state or independent school, you can grow up and realise you hated your education wherever you were schooled. My advice is try her at the school, if she doesn't enjoy it, move, it wouldn't be the end of the world.

iwillmarryharry123 · 22/02/2011 00:52

WKMUM!! If your daughter is unhappy at her state school, please DO try her at the steiner school. I am an ex-Steiner student myself (I left as my school ran out of classes..not out of choice. Trust me, if I could be taught in a Steiner school forever, I would never leave :D) and I have had a wholly positive experience. I moved to the school when I was eight, and moving late is really not an issue. Out of my class of seventeen, twelve joined between the ages of eight and fourteen.

Regarding PLANS (in case you have seen it) I have never seen anything so scary in my life. I don't know, it might apply to some schools, but from my experience of Steiner schools (and there is a fair amount of interaction between steiner schools - we do eurythmy performances for each other and there are the class five Olympics, for example) it's totally wrong. The website makes them seem far more cult-like and extremist than anything I have ever seen at a Steiner school.

Also, you don't have to start living by the Steiner ethos in your private life. It's perfectly possible to appreciate Steiner education without getting rid of you TV and buying all your food from Suma. By Class Five-ish that stuff doesn't really apply anyway, and the schools usually make it seem a much bigger deal in prospectuses and stuff than it really is. You're allowed to do what you like, really - just don't tell the kindergarten teacher :D

If your daughter is behind and unhappy at school, then I think you should seriously consider Steiner education - not because Steiner is for the less academically-capable, but because at a Steiner school the approach is different, and this usually means that those who were unhappy in state will excell, and find that science is combined with art and drama so that an understanding can be formed through a medium the child is comfortable with. I learnt maths through a story about King Twelve, and his loyal subjects Plus, Minus, Divide and Times. At my state primary school, I was in the lowest set for maths and my mother was told that I was probably discalculus. Since I joined Steiner I have never had a problem, and now am considering studying physics at university.

I believe that all children are capable of the same, it's just a matter of finding the right way to unlock their skills. Steiner may be the perfect way for your daughter, and I really think you should give it a try. If she is already unhappy and underachieving (just as I was) then you really have nothing to lose. If it's a disaster, then she can be moved back into a State school.

Hope I'm not too late - these threads are awful, they attract the two opposite extremes. I'm trying to be fairly balanced...I know that Steiner schools don't suit everyone. But I know they suit me, and I think they might suit you and your family.

restlessnative · 30/04/2010 20:32

WKMum - you should stay if you want to. mumsnet threads often morph into different ones altogether, can be interesting. People appear & take them off somewhere else - it's a democracy of opinionated (& outspoken) writers. It's not always easy to start a thread here, so good on you.

You're within your rights to maintain anything at all and no one has the right not to be offended, even if they don't agree with what you say. I can see that elements of some sites criticising Waldorf Steiner must seem pretty bizarre. But imo that's understandable. They're often discussing very odd concepts which almost need a new language! Sometimes 'balanced' is just nonsense, a failure to accept an uncomfortable truth. 'Cultish' is not a good word for a firmly held opinion, it implies a more sinister exclusivity & secrecy. Some of those people were just very distressed at the time of writing, some are angry & a few might be inappropriately malicious but that has nothing to do with the need to question the nature & reputation of these schools. It's just human.

It's a good thing, wouldn't you agree, that a few people with enormous brains, or actually just the right kind of curiosity about the question (& no more brainy than you or I) have taken the risk that you might take their passion for 'fervency' & their analysis for 'cult-like' devotion to an idea. If we really felt like that, every research scientist would be rejected for her pursuit of the truth & instead be praised for nonchalance.

OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper · 30/04/2010 20:27

's okay WKM - none taken.
Sometimes it happens on MN that a thread touches a nerve or prompts a response in people, and the result can seem to be going off on a tangent.
FWIW, I don't get too deeply involved in discussing the 'Waldorf question' in great depth - partly because of my relatively feeble intellect and partly because of the strong emotions it engenders which I'd rather leave behind.
However, I'm deeply grateful that there are posters here who do have the intellectual capacity and the magnanamity of spirit to look into these matters on others' behalf, and long may they continue to do so.
The thread may continue along current lines, or it may end soon - don't feel obliged to keep coming back and thanking everyone; as you've been said, you've been given food for thought, to do with as you wish. < Thinks: does that make sense? >
< can't be bothered to check >
Best of luck.

WKMum · 30/04/2010 19:41

I think I should bow out of this thread now, since RN thinks I 'haven't the first idea what I'm talking about', which is completely true - but, of course, is also the reason I started the OP - to try to become better informed.

Truth be told, I am understanding less and less of what is being posted here and becoming more and more confused!

I sincerely apologise to anyone I might have unwittingly offended with anything I've posted: I have nothing but thanks to everyone for so generously offering their personal experiences.

I do think I am still within my rights to maintain that, IMHO, from things I have read elsewhere - not on this site, which is something I never suggested - that there are people in both camps (anti- and pro-Steiner/Waldorf) who seem 'fervent' (impassioned) and 'cultish' (devoted to an idea), and that this therefore makes it all the more difficult for people like myself, who are not blessed with enormous brains, to decipher it all.

However, I do want to thank everyone for taking the time to contribute to this thread: I am indebted to you all - if now somewhat daunted at the prospect of posting anything on MN ever again!

Warmest regards to you all!

OP posts:
restlessnative · 30/04/2010 19:35

It's a truly delicious name, yes. But I think of you as Lady Perpetual - is that OK?

Here's a statement from the VC of Stockholm University about the course those Swedish celebs are trying to get reinstated (it's google translate) Waldorf Education at Stockholm University

'It is the faculty board's responsibility to ensure quality education in science, and indeed to "put themselves up as judges" as the reader iuttrycker it, the contents of the training that the university arranges, and literature is simply not up to standard. I fully agree with the assessment of the Board, after taking note of the elements of literature. Some of the content is not only scientifically untenable, it is simply untrue.'

And unless it's become 'true' since, it would still be scientifically untenable. As was the course content of the Steiner teacher training course at the University of Plymouth (now closed) and imo that of every other Steiner Waldorf teacher training course anywhere in the world.

Barking · 30/04/2010 18:56

OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper - what a fab name yes truly bizarre, if MN isn't willing to ban Tizian and his assistants perhaps we can create a thread just for them - they can post all the bloody links they want and their carefully crafted celebrity list and leave the rest of us to chat as it was in the good old days.

Now that Tizian has clarified his unique application of legal terminology perhaps we can look forward to all our old posts and threads being reinstated...

If anyone is wondering where Tizian/Thebee/Eva52/Rose/Excalibor is someone has sent me a link to his latest activity - this appears to be quite some hobby as he's now threatening a Swedish newspaper and having some success, he has managed to get quite a lot of the less favourable posts deleted and is now busy trying to derail the comments board.

He now wishes to be known as Fred

The letter in question is calling for a new Steiner Waldorf teacher training course in Sweden (a previous course at Stockholm University had been ejected on the grounds that the material was 'unscientific and downright dangerous').

Choice! Diversity!

Barking · 30/04/2010 18:25

Hi Restless I remember receiving a parcel that had been delivered to us by mistake and when I called round to give it to the neigbour the son opened the door and his poor face and neck had ballooned to twice the size due to the mumps, he could barely speak he was in such agony

I sincerely hope his parents knew what they were doing, though I suspect not as the mother used to busy herself all day dyeing silk play cloths and the father was a Steiner teacher.

OurLadyOfPerpetualSupper · 30/04/2010 17:21

Re. the 'cryptic' speech; ironic, isn't it, that just such a style of communication becomes second nature to Waldorf teachers and their apologists - and yet we ex-Steiner parents are obliged to revert to it on threads like these?

restlessnative · 30/04/2010 15:51

hey Barking - Unity & libcon roam mumsnet at last, like rough, unruly beasts of politics through a forest of duplo ;)

The measles outbreak in the UK school you mantion is nothing new. Measles outbreaks have been associated with Steiner Waldorf schools across Europe. Here's an overview from scienceblogs: Austrian Anthroposophy Waldorf School Hit by Measles Outbreak

Parents at MH & other Steiner schools would be well advised to make sure their dcs are vaccinated. This of course protects dcs who for any reason can't have the jabs, as well as your own dcs. I hope no one reading this finds it too upsetting.

Lovely to see you Barking btw. And cheers. You're amazing

Barking · 30/04/2010 15:15

WKMum - I haven't direct experience of MH but a quick look at one of their newsletters from last month reveals cases of measles and mumps in the school:

"Measles and Mumps
We now have a case of Measles in the
Middle school. If you suspect measles
we recommend you ring your GP
rather than taking the child into the
Health Centre because of the risk of
spreading the infection.
Mumps is also still being reported in
all areas of school.
Susanne Fuller, First Aid".

Friday 19th of March Newsletter

Barking · 30/04/2010 15:13

Restless you may be waiting some time for that 'plethora of evidence'

I don't tend to post on MN anymore, especially about Steiner ed, MN used to feel a safe place for me to talk about my experiences (I had a dc in a Steiner school and lived in what became a Steiner community as families moved in) and then someone came along pretending to be a mother calling himself Eva52. This person is a follower of anthroposophy (the philosophy behind Steiner Waldorf). He was outed by other posters as he apparently trawls parenting forums for any criticism and posts links to his many positive websites, he also posts using the names Thebee, Rose, Excalibor and Tizian and now others.

I've often wondered why Mumsnet has never banned him, this is not a free speech issue, this is an individual who represents a school movement in which many parents here have had incredibly distressing experiences. He deliberately intimidates, subverts and behaves in an personally abusive manner and when parents have tried to fight back their posts get deleted. I am astonished that he is still allowed to post here.

The Steiner Waldorf movement is not honest about what the underlying philosophy (anthroposophy) actually is and so parents wishing to make an informed decision or make sense of some of the behaviour and actions of the schools would come here to discuss and support each other. Posters like Northernrefugee39 and Restlessnative have tried to make sense of this for other mumsnetters.

Tizian has threatened legal action if he sees a post he doesn't like (a quick search and you'll find literally hundreds of posts which have disappeared, I also believe whole threads have been pulled due to his threats). So WKMum and others new on here may find it quite disorientating as some of the parents are writing in a rather cryptic way in order to not get this thread pulled. It is no wonder that some of the writing appears odd.

What is worth mentioning is that Tizian recently appeared on another forum and when asked specifically about his threats to sue he replied:

"I wasn?t pretending I could sue you for it.

When I described and describe your link page as promoting libel, defamation and badmouthing of Waldorf educstion and schools, I refer to the factual meaning of the words, what they normally mean to people, not the limited legal sense ".

comment 99

liberalconspiracy.org/2010/03/18/tories-offer-state-funding-to-schools-linked-to-occult-society/

restlessnative · 30/04/2010 15:10

Then next time, WKMum, you could think before you write. 'fervent and cultish' isn't just expressing the fact that opinion is divided. You haven't the first idea what you're talking about.

LauraIngallsWilder

justaboutkeepingawake · 30/04/2010 15:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

mummytime · 30/04/2010 14:58

I'd just like to say thank you to WKMum for starting such an interesting discussion.
I'e been fascinated because a few years ago when my husband might have been relocating to Edinburgh I was quite interested from the publicity, in maybe sending my children to the Steiner school there.
I'm kind of relieved that move never happened now.

LauraIngallsWilder · 30/04/2010 10:51

Restless - "my little smörgåsbord of red herrings" has to be my MN qoute of the year so far