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Original poster

The Real School League Tables

142 replies

Xenia · 21/03/2010 17:56

Only using subjects Cambridge accepts (top 1000 are ranked in all sectors). I like the fact they give earlier rankings too so you get to see the history rather than just a blip year.

www.ft.com/cms/s/0/53840c30-327e-11df-bf20-00144feabdc0.html

"The FT?s school league tables focus unashamedly on academic achievement defined by ?core? subject A-level results, as set out by Cambridge University in 2006. Subjects such as drama and media studies are not included in our analysis.

By contrast, the government?s summary scores for schools at GCE/VCE, A-level and AS-levels this year (for 2009 exam results) again included various other qualifications in subjects such as animal care, and make-up, which we feel give little help to students and parents aiming for places at top universities.
...

Apologies to readers in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but the devolved assemblies (education is devolved) have decided that school performance data is not a public good and have made school level data nigh-on impossible to access. Sadly we cannot include their schools.
...

Like the government?s, our analysis uses the QCA points system, as follows: grade A A-levels = 270 points, grade B = 240 points, C = 210 points, D = 180 points and E = 150

OP posts:
McBitchy · 26/03/2010 21:34

Sadly I do agree with Xenia about peer group

My very academic ds will outright say 'Yes but (insert childs name) is not competitive' His academic success was due to home/genetics/school but where he has been driven to EXCEL has been peer group.

Desperate to outwit his friends he has driven his grades higher and higher...they all compete - there are maybe 8 of them who bounce off one another in the sciences and achieve accordingly

My ds has done really well and got a cambridge offer though 100% state education plus loads of other interests and social skills to boot..

He and his peers pour scorn on the privately educated who took Mummy and Daddy along to the Oxbridge interviews

Who am i to comment?

ra29needsabettername · 26/03/2010 18:43

Having had direct experience of NLCS Xenia I can assure you my opinions about it have absolutely nothing to do with envy.
As you say, adolescents can follow the culture around them, so eating disordered attitudes can become part of that culture.
The idea that these schools are not pressured is laughable.
Putting a whole lot of perfectionist young girls together in an environment that further pushes the idea of academic, musical, artistic perfection is utter madness.
The a level/oxbridge results mean far less to me than the mental health of my child.

Clarissimo · 26/03/2010 17:50

Anorexia is aboutmany things (DS1 in dx process)- in a good part about children who drive themselves to perfection.

I woiudl imagine higher pressuring parents are more likely to engender that in a child although it is only a guess.

It's also about control of course and low self esteen. In truth high self esteem is one of the qualities I would associate with those private school educated people I know; on occasion too high mind!

Original poster
Xenia · 26/03/2010 17:39

DOubt it. Probably just consultants jealous their daughters cannot get in. If you have lots of clever middle class girls some will have it. Obviously I knew every girl in my daughter's class. They always seemed to eat a lot.

But this point about teenagers being influenced by their school mates - surely that's very well established. They take more notice of their friends than their parents. They want to become a plumber or go to an ex poly because everyone at school is or no the dole or to have a baby. If everyone works hard and does well they are more likely to see that as the norm. I'm not saying chdilren can't be different but it's very hard to be at that age so place your child in an environment of peers you want them to emulate.

Anorexia is internal. It's not really caused by parents although like many things in this society blaming parents is de rigour so it wouldn't be surprising if people weren't seeking to blame it on that.

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MinnieMalone · 26/03/2010 16:03

I love hearing your schpiel, Xenia. Are you qualified to dish out little gems like 'most children follow the herd'? Do you realise how totally inaccurate most of your sweeping statements about people Who Dont Go To North London Collegiate are?

If we are talking anecdotally, as you are so fond of doing - I recently attended a meeting of consultants and researchers involved in the treatment of anorexia in teenage girls. NLC was mentioned several times as being a school very severely affected by this disease. I wonder if it's all the pressure parents put on their daughters?

Clarissimo · 26/03/2010 15:58

My old school had a fully functional farm, where would that score I wonder? (me? Somerset born and bred? noooo....). 'course they don't any mroe, the animals all went to alughtewr over a summer.

So academic propwess- nil; general life skills and 'deal with it children' factor- full marks.

ABetaDad · 26/03/2010 15:48

Don't mention the lake!

Still wondering if a 'body of water' league table might be quite useful though with each school graded on the following comparative scale.

Olympic sized rowing Lake and 50 metre swimming pool (e.g Eton) at the top end. Muddy cow field, a puddle in the playground and a gold fish bowl in the headmaster's study (e.g my old primary school) at the bottom end.

My DSs current school features a dangerous river with regular drownings and occassonal use of a local authority pool with a leaking roof. Tried it on a few other schools and it seems to be a surprisingly accurate indictor of overall quality. Encompasses state and private and difficult to fiddle the results too.

Clarissimo · 26/03/2010 14:30

Xeniua I agree

And in fact so did the young man I mantioned- he said to his Mum what happens to all these children when they get onto the demanding University courses? (She said they are the ones who vanish in a term rather than fail as it could not possibly be thir ability lacking, must be the course - she used to lecture at cardiff so probably met a few of them!)

I will pay for specific help for specific things- dyslexia support or whatever. Stuff to enable him to show how bright he is. But in all truth if he cannot get into a job through natural ability its probably the wrong route for him. nobody is talented at everything- I can wrote you an essay on islamic history for tomorrow but I can't 9random example) draw for toffee. So exams results showing that are good as they help me target where I fit and not soem pointless dream that is doomed to fail.

(DS2 wants to work in animal rescue, like his Aunt, so needs to access an HND in animal science- not easy but not Oxbridge either, at least not is studied at the agricultural college where mum lives)

Original poster
Xenia · 26/03/2010 12:37

My great grandmother had 17 I think and I have 5.

Yes, lots of state school pupils like Blair's when they were at a state school have tutoring - he bought it in from Westminster School but I think if a child isn't bright enough to get into a school without tutoring it may not be the right school for them unless it's just doing practice papers and exam technique and I certainly never even looked at a piece of GCSE course work of the older 3 children and they didn't have tutors.

I ilke them to relax and be and learn how to be bored and how to deal with having nothing on and get on with each other and pursue hobbies etc. If you look at how successful people my age (40s) were educated it's very variable although it is extremely helpful to have good exam results early on for plenty of careers and makes it harder if you don't but you need inclination to succeed, hard work and good physical and mental health too, a huge range of interesting factors.

Anyway it's nice to be able to pay for a good school. It just makes things a bit simpler and it's quite nice to feel you're a paying customer rather than a forlock tugging yokel lucky to have the sink comp because of the largesse of people who pay as much tax as I do. The experience as a parent is nicer too. We actually set foot in a local state school recently. I could hardly believe it. It was like a prison camp - no carpets, the building looked like partially prefab circa 1960 a kind of bleakness about it you don't get in the private sector and that wasn't even our local one which went from 22% A - C GCES to the dizzy heights of 34%. There are of course spanking new physical buildings labour as churned out whilst it taxes the rest of us until the pips squeak to pay for it but even so the result is that fewer state pupils do well compared to private so it's not working.

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Clarissimo · 26/03/2010 11:37

PMSL

ds2

I do have 4 though but no more (Nan had sixteen so probably still get to claim most common genes of my generation award: a prime reason for moving away if ever there was one, when your family is so large marrying anyone within 10 miles probably equals in breeding )

ABetaDad · 26/03/2010 11:35

DS32!?

Clarissimo · 26/03/2010 11:28

'Also if a really good private school rejects 4 in 5 of applicants at 11+ because their marks are lower in the entrance tests and all those parents can pay (which is the case with the best private schools) it is not a question of being able to pay and then they get in'

Yay and nay

Absolutely aspects of the best education cannot be boughth but those children rejected aren't going to end up at sink comp are they? Just less selective private in the next town- which still probably has better facillities than most other comps.

The comp here is astounding; great resukts, tiny catchment, already have people nudging me to ask if we really want ds2 to attend as trheya re out of catchment and we are not (oh sod off is what I think as I politely smile and point out that they are not even in upper school yet - and yes of course I want him study with his friendship group, why shouldn't I?). My Uni course leader has a son doing his A's there (offered Cambridge, rejected it because the degree he wants is somewhat remarkably less marketable from there due to course content) and we sit and laugh at the children who all have a parlour of tehir own (obviosuly we live in 1864) but it is somewhat scary that her son is the ojnly one in his calss not to receive private tutoring: there's no way we could finance that, dn even if we could with 2X asd therapies to delvier and ds2's own dyspraxia / dyslexia stuff, it would be unmanageable. DS32 is bright as a button and a great social child who is suited to his career ambition, but he's always going to be at a disadvanatge when people can throw random cash at their children. Luckily though he should thrive in his career choice and we have links (sister in same career), much as with ds1 his career choice is non academic and Dh will be in same field- counts for a lot.

Original poster
Xenia · 26/03/2010 09:44

But I know at my daughters' old schools my girls always said all pressure was really from individual girls. I seem to have bred totally laid back children. I don't think they felt pressured by schools in the top 20 at all but there were certainly children in their classes who were very internally driven and some with eating disorders. High achieving teenage girls are the classic category to have anorexia and the schools have very very good provision for that and other issues children might have although I've no direct experience of it.

My experience was the schools going on about not working all hours, keeping up your hobbies, having time outside and not revision for hours a day at A level stage. In other words telling the girls to lay off a bit with work because you do better if you have a break from it all. But that doesn't mean all private schools are the same.

Also there are huge numbhers of parents out there with chilren who have no chance of getting into the top 20 schools who love ot suggest they are awful places full of pressured chidlren whereas they aren't at all but you can see why someone whose precious little May whom they think is a genius was rejected by XYA school or they realised there was no point in her sitting because she'd fail the exam likes to think those places are the first stage of hell when in fact they tend to be pretty lovely environments. I won't mention the lakes on this thread.

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ABetaDad · 26/03/2010 09:35

I was responding to ra29needsabettername with my previous post.

However, I also agree with Xenia about vouchers as well.

ABetaDad · 26/03/2010 09:33

Good point. I was told by one parent that at a high league table secondary school she knows the girls are under huge pressure and the incidence of bullying and eating disorders is worringly high. She said the school is rather more interested in its academic league table position though and prefers to advise parents take their daughter out of the school if she is having problems or not able to handle the pressure to perform.

She was shocked at how Darwinian their approach was - they even have an unstated policy of culling good students at the bottom of each class if they get a lot of new applicants that are better.

Original poster
Xenia · 26/03/2010 09:30

But you get that all over the place and at least in the private schools there are probably fewer stabbings and weapons in schools etc etc.

If you have as very clever child they tend to do better with similar children. The important thing about the league tables is they enable parents to make an informed choice. If you want a school where the children dont' have to attend lessons then you pick Summer Hill or if you want music you might pick Y M or Chetam's and if you're a bit thick but want boarding and sports Millfield etc etc... I don't think it's that hard to get information about which school has the best music and sports results. you only have to look at who competes in the Olympics to know that the 7% at private schools are massively better at sport than the state system which basically does most things badly because that's what the state always does.

Let's instead abolish state schooling and give parents a £5k a year voucher to spend where they choose. That would raise standards.

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ra29needsabettername · 26/03/2010 08:09

I'd love to see a league table that measured eating disorders/ self harm/ drug taking and overall mental health. There is more to life you know people.

mycatunderstandsme · 26/03/2010 07:59

I agree with foxinsocks. I did well at school and am in a professional job but find my job very stressful and currently work just 2 days a week because that's all I can stand to do! I went to a state comp. but was very self motivated.

I chose subjects at school purely to enable me to do this job and not because I loved them.

My DD loves art and drama and actually I don't think these are worthless subjects.It is lovely to see her take such pleasure in schoolwork and she is very talented in both. She is doing a good range of academic subjects too at GCSE. When it comes to sixth form I suspect she will do a mixture of academic/non academic subjects-and I will encourage her to do this to keep her options open.

Obviously it is important to consider work after school/university but I regret my choice of academic subjects at school.

foxinsocks · 26/03/2010 07:37

I think people confuse success and happiness with good exam results. Some of the people I know who are the most successful and people I know who love their jobs didn't come out of school with top exam marks.

There is so much more to life than exam results, so much more.

I agree a good education opens up more choices in later life but I don't think you need to even be in the top 100 schools for that. Plenty of normal state schools churn out well educated children. They may not feature in those tables because they aren't little exam factories and have other challenges like children not speaking english as their first language, greater special needs, non selection etc. etc.!

jackstarbright · 26/03/2010 07:16

McBitchy you've given me an idea! I think these league tables could be used to compare the different ways for educating bright kids. After all the league table is measuring the success of individual schools - not the overall A level success rates of regions.

If we go with the FT explanation that long term economic decline has effected the number of very bright kids in northern private schools and, assume that intelligence is evenly spread over England - then we could we expect that state schools in the north to, on average, do better than state schools in the SE?

With the bottom end of the league table having proportionately more SE schools.

A suggestion for a Mumsnet PHD?

McBitchy · 25/03/2010 23:45

11.5% judging by the class photo < starts digging road to get to the south>

McBitchy · 25/03/2010 23:43

Xenia at least 3 children out of my dc's state primary school are going to cambridge this year ( dependent on A*)

bog standard NORTHERN state primary

maybe they are a little glitch of bright sparks that somehow avoided having their IQs diminshed by being born in the North of our tiny island

Soon that will be rectified when their bright little brains move south where they belong!

Original poster
Xenia · 25/03/2010 23:22

But plenty of those in good jobs love it too - just because you work long hours in a really interesting job doesn't mean you're fed up. That's much better than long hours plucking chickens or on the till at Tesco.

I don't think any society can be equal in that sense and we don't want it to be. It's good if children have access to a good education but most parents want to advantage their own children.

Also if a really good private school rejects 4 in 5 of applicants at 11+ because their marks are lower in the entrance tests and all those parents can pay (which is the case with the best private schools) it is not a question of being able to pay and then they get in. That is so with lower tier private schools but at the upper end it is the school choosing your child if their IQ etc is high enough not the other way round. Most children who apply don't get in. Most are rejected. Most don't meet the standard and that's why they're good (and same with state grammars) and it's how life is - the best do well those who aren't so good don't. We're made like that.

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loungelizard · 25/03/2010 19:32

Absolutely agree with reallylostitnow. Also agree with clarissimo as to how it can be implemented.

Drawing attention to league tables with already advantaged students getting top grades isn't really very illuminating.

(Disclaimer: my DC are/were at 'top' schools and 'top' universities...)

Clarissimo · 25/03/2010 18:55

HOw do we do it though?

I worked for homestart adn know that works but otherwise- with all the will in the world, sending them (as of course we absolutely should) to good schools and beleiving in their worth and potential will be thwarted when they go home to no [proper food and no contact with books, routine or any value palced on being repsonsible for oneself