If anyone is still 'sitting' on a senior school place for Sept....

fabhead, well said.

We made the choice at the start that we would pay rather than get religion, move or lie. (At the time the Local Authority was threatening to close our local primary and merge it with the third worst performing primary in the country. They were only prepared to consult with existing parents - whose opposition they discounted - and tenants associations on local estates who appeared to have an average age of 70.)

As a result we got a certain amount of flack from people who felt they were sticking to principles. However I think I can safely say that 10 years later there is no moral high ground at all, and I would struggle to think of anyone who has not moved their child to a better performing primary with the hope of improving their chances of secondary, rented a flat in an out of borough catchment, taken God seriously even to the extent of switching from CofE to Catholic, tutored their kids until VR/non VR comes out of their ears, or used grannies address.

The real slog of working full time to pay fees seems honest and straight-forward in comparison. At least the kids can move through their education smoothly and without worry. Hopefully the benefits of seeing parents work hard outweighs the fact that they have spent the Easter holidays being shoved on one trip, course or camp after another and that their mum is often tired, stressed and grumpy.

You don't have to look far to see politicians who have made sure their kids are in high performing state schools, often passing failing ones on the way.

People will look after their own. It is not right, but the losers, as fabhead suggests, may be those kids whose parents don't do the same.

I completely disagree with the op - although in an ideal world this wouldn't go on. It's not the individuals who are at fault, it's the system as it has developed in this country with regards to school places. Having being shat on by the system (ds offered none of 3 "choices") I now wish I had pretended to be religous / rented nearer the school etc. Where has the moral highground got my dc? Private school miles away from local friends who are at the school up the road from us. When it comes to junior / secondary and school for siblings I will be doing exactly this - sitting on as many places and options for them as I can possibly get until I make the best decsion for them - you'd be stupid not to where we live.

Having had no options at one point I would never put all my eggs in one basket again when it is only my dc that will suffer for my principles. It's a horrible, harsh system but having been on the waiting lists to no avail and hardly ever seeing my kids due to working ft for the real possibility of having to pay for their education, it's a lottery and you have to play it as best as you can. No one knows what will happen so in their position I would keep the place until the beginning of the summer (not right up to September though)

I think this is real problem. The people who are saying it isn't aren't thinking about it from the children's point of view. It's one thing telling your child they've got the choice of 2 places they like and waiting to decide which one they'll take. Slightly less fun for a child to be told they've got a place at a school they don't want, but just wait right to the very last minute to see if someone gives it up a place. Horrible for the children involved!

It would be much fairer all round if the LEAs were in liaison with the independent sector - so the LEA knew if someone had a private AND a state place. They should then be given a sensible deadline to keep or let go of the state place. Fair's fair!

Dear Cranbury

I think it is wrong provided they know they can afford it and intend to send to private. I'm one of the 'lots' of people, we made 4 choices and didn't get any!! This also happened for my first child but I got him into my first choice on appeal. My second child got our third of 4 choice but my daughter has got none.

She is the only one in the school not to have got into a school of her choice - the others either got into local grammer schools or just lived that little nearer and so were within catchment areas for at least one of the schools they wanted .

We have been to see the school she has been 'allocated' and it is difficult to get to and is a specialist school for all the subject she hates!!

I am just hoping that some of those private school places are accepted and she can move up the waiting lists soon....

I despair when I hear people are unhappy and they got at least one of their choices , we would have been happy with any of our four choices

In the current climate nobody knows if their job is secure it seems entirely sensible if you have no financial savings or security to hold onto the school place - they are doing best for their child. However, anybody looking into going private should have quite a lot of back up funds as you don't know what will happen - fee increases, job loss, illness etc... If you can only scrape into paying the school fees it is quite a precarious position to be in.

Don't think admissions people can get on their high horse about this when lots of people, including everybody living on my road got NONE of their 3 school choices again this year.

I can't believe people really do this If they have already decided and accepted a place then it seems rather selfish to then accept another place. I actually think this is worse than people lieing to get places they don't live in the catchment of. I don't think lieing is ok, but that is done out of desperation not greed.

An extreme example of the topic I realise, but I witnessed a good friend pull-off an incredible stunt to get her child into a local nursery school even?! She lied about having en-listed her child much earlier, blaming staff for losing her details and so jumped to the top of the waiting list above me and other friends' children. We were all aghast and this was someone we all liked.

When it comes to THEIR children, some people will stop at nothing to get what they want - I think it's a primevel instinct that affects their moral compass or something. Our local authority recently discovered a family had put a garage address down as their main home to get their child into a good local secondary school and got caught - how embarrassing is that!

The thing I think is even more annoying is parents putting their DC in for the 11+ when they have no intention of sending their DC to the grammar school concerned.In our area the highest scoring 28% of the in-catchment cohort are deemd to have passed and this sets the 'pass mark' for out-of-catchment children.
So when in-catchment children who have passed decide not apply for a grammar school place, they have in effect permanantly denied another in-catchment child.

She is playing the system. If you disapprove, it's the system you should direct your anger at.

I think it's fair enough. Though I'm in exactly the same position - DD is going into the secondary part of her independent girls' school and I released the state school place (to a good school - she got in legitimately on a music place) the day after I received it. Didn't want to hog it when someone else would be desperate for it. Hopefully nothing will change in our circumstances and I won't regret this! Don't really blame them for holding onto it for a while longer as a safety net. After all we all pay the same taxes!!!

The parents have done nothing wrong legally, they are quite within their rights to cling on to the school place untill the very last minute... even into the state school autumn term.

But morally I think it's wrong.

Cette,
Whilst I agree with your sentiments, you are not correct they do not have two places, they have one place in the state sector. As such to remove that place would be illegal of the admission authority unless there was fraud involved. There is no fraud in the situation that they expect the child to go to a private school.

So whilst they are being very selfish in not releasing the place, they are in my opinion within their rights.

Cette, of course I do empathise with the 11 year olds who haven't got the school of their choice - but as I mentioned earlier I still see nothing wrong with parents holding on to their place as a safeguard against any unforseeables. That is my opinion and I'm perfectly entitled to it!

On the issue of morality - The world would be a much better place if everyone was open and honest - but sadly, that isn't the case.

Fact is, no condition is permanent - and as the OP mentions, the parents are keeping their options open in case one of their jobs is as risk.

You can't blame parents for holding on to a good thing (re: good state schools). Bottom line is: If the government cares enough to make the standard of every school high, then there would wouldn't be issues of over subscription / parents scrambling for the few good schools left!

I think the parents have done nothing wrong by holding on to the state school place.

They obviously have a reason that they need to hold onto it. maybe financially they are weighing up the odds of another 7 years private versus a good state place.

They are not holding onto 2 places. One is in the independent sector.

We shall be doing exactly the same next year. i.e deciding whether to take up a private or state place very much nearer to the start date.

Presumably they'll have to decide at Easter anyway to give a term's notice to independent school or otherwise be liable for a term's fees in lieu if they go down the state route.

Sorry I also don't get it. We actually didn't apply (or even receive a pack to do so) when ds was in year 6 as he had the option to stay for another 2 years, by which time state school is effectivley ruled out. However when we applied for a year3 place for him and Recpetion palce for dd we were living abroad and were uncertain as to whether the private school would suit them both, until a visit in the May. So we held onto those state school places until then. Every child is entitled to a state school place and why not hedge your bets if you are not 100% sure. Agree it is the liars who are a more significant problem.

LoveRoses, I think you will find they are not within their 'rights' to do that! The DCSF advises every single local authority to put in their information a section about when the local authority has a right to withdraw a child's school place. It quite clearly states that as soon as it is discovered a parent is holding two offers, the local authority can withdraw their offer immediately. Each child should have ONE school offer. Its fair. Your 'no harm done' arguement completely ignores the fact that there are 11 year old children in tears all summer because they can't go to school with their friends. Its all about simple empathy for other children - if it was you who was kept waiting until the 1st september on the top of a waiting list for some selfish parent to hand back their place, I have no doubt you would be angry too!

Whippet - if it bothers you that much, write an anonymous letter to the Local Authority giving the name of the private school where the parents have accepted the place. A simple phonecall to that school by the LA will confirm that they have accepted the place there also, and their state school place will be withdrawn and offered to the next person on the waiting list - who i have no doubt would be very grateful they were not kept in limbo for months!!

LoveRoses - of course they're entitled to apply (seems sensible) and hold hilst making decision. For some there is a genuine uncertainty (I think in Ivy's situation) which is also sensible.

Whippet is talking about those who have absolutely no intention of ever taking up the state place. I knew someone at my dc's primary who did this very blatantly - she'd tutored for private since year 4 and there was never any question of her going anywhere else.

Re. 'no harm done' - see my post above. Long term, possibly not, short term - oh yes we had a fab 6 months thanks v much

I also agree with SoupDragon, Mamatomany and Ivykaty44 and see nothing wrong with that.

The parents are perfectly within their "rights" to do so and are simply exercising / demonstrating the fact that they have a "choice" in this instance.

If they do decide against sending their dc to the state school, the next child up there on the waiting list gets the place eventually - so no harm done.

IMO, they sound like wise parents as they're leaving their options open. No harm done as long as they didn't lie/cheat to get the place.

The induction can be very, very important to some children. I feel for those who miss it for what ever reason.

I agree with you Whippet.

I know someone who did it with her child's reception place. But in her case she was just too damn lazy to pick up the phone and tell them her son was going private. In fact, I'm not quite sure why she had applied to the local state school at all.

Threre are people sitting with their fingers cross, with baited breath as we speak, waiting for a place to come up, who can't move or remortgage. I'm sooo glad I'm not one of those poor parents.

I'm with you Whippet.

My eldest was on receiving end of this. She and a couple of others finally got a place at good school at last minute because of this.

Yes it all worked out in end but in meantime:

• Paid out for residential weekend at original school, by this lte date could not reclaim the money. Good job the offer arrived the day before I bought her uniform
• missed all induction
• and what a great spring and summer she had. All her friends talking excitedly about their fab schools whilst she was going to St Plebs. Bloody great that was

Whippet, I am with you 100%. I think its totally immoral to be 'holding' onto a place you have no intention of taking up. The parents on the waiting list are in anguish all summer, preparing their children for one school and buying the uniform etc, only to be told on the 1st of september that they get their first school all along. Some people just have no empathy for others. Its entirely selfish.

I work for an admissions authority in London, and I abhore this behaviour. If we find out about any child who holds more than one offer of a school place, they get a 'polite' letter telling them they have 5days to confirm which place they will be taking up, or the state school place will be automatically withdrawn.

I completely understand your anger at them, it makes me mad too!!

Interesting that you assume that, because I disagree with you, I must be doing the thing you apparently abhor.