When you can never be part of the 'elect'

'The geeks shall inherit the earth'

( and it heartens me greatly)

I am continually suprised at work by how many of the ugliest geekiest seemingly delta kids are popular and included.

This is an interesting thread. My ds is in year 9 of an all boys school. They are very Rugby orientated, nothing else touches it. My son has never been in to it, or is very good at it, but has one very close friend who is, and several other mates who are in the team. It really has never been an issue, not 1%. He likes football, and is ok at running though, but no way would do it fater school to keep up with anyone!

He has a nice group of mates, they are all very easy and relaxed with each other. No falling out, no competitiveness. this is how I expected it to be because I think boys are far nore laid back than boys. i would say ds doesn't even try to keep up. He isn't bothered about clothes (just loves his trackie bottoms and a t shirt)- despite me trying to modernise him! He will make an effort if he is going out- jeans and a nice T, adidas trainers.

I would say your sons mates are not true friends at all, and he should look for another hobby to get talking to others. But I know my ds had made his firm friends by the end of Y7, and they havent changed at all.

ime there is no direct correlation between queen bee behaviour in your teens and any measurable success or usefulness later in life

some of the yardsticks of success for 12yos are really very shallow and unlikely to be much of a predictor for later life

but agree with other posters that your ds has to find this out for himself

So it's fine for children from less privileged backgrounds to be excluded from the 'elect' because their parents can't afford to buy them the latest 'right' clothes? I call that prejudice and discrimination actually, and I think it is far from alright. I'm pretty sure if attitudes like that are carried through into adult life then the people in question will fall foul of the law at some stage.

I am far from blind to adolescence and what it is all about Anna - I have an adolescent of my own, and I have taught 11-18s for all of my teaching career. What I do not teach them is to judge on clothes and sporting abilities, but on how their peers treat other people. I teach them that every one has different talents and that one size (sport for example) doesn't fit all.

If you think adolescence is about being tribal, then I think you misunderstand what it is about, and that you are perpetuating the misery that goes on for many youngsters every year. Lets hope your dcs don't end up outside any tribes.

abraid - I wrote a bit about this in a recent thread about choosing schools for non-sporty boys.

Some schools have the ethos of sport being regarded above all other activities. Your son needs your support and encouragement in excelling elsewhere. All part of growing up experiences but I do also wonder if the ring leader of this gang is also a bit of a manipulative bully.

Yes of course it's all right - it's more than all right. And if you cannot see that, you are really blind to adolescence and what it is all about

Grow up Anna - not a chip, but years of picking up students going through this, and I loathe the fact that being sporty is the yard stick by which the boys are judged. I would far rather have an academic child than a sporty one - and yes, academics ARE a lot of the point of school - good GCSEs/ A-levels and a degree will get you further than being able to throw a ball.

I also find that the non sporty types are the more pleasant students who have interests outside sport; who are prepared to dig a little deeper than face value, or the 'right' clothes to see if they like someone or not. Being tribal is what I would expect in Year 6; I'm looking for greater maturity in my students by the end of year 8.

As to the 'right' clothing comment - grrrrr. This one makes my blood boil, as not all students can afford the 'right' clothing - some parents have enough trouble feeding their kids, let alone making sure they have the latest Nikes, or whatever is brand name of the minute. These children, however talented are then excluded because they don't fit. That's alright then is it Anna?

I shouldn't worry about it too much. Year 7 is a bit of strange year, all finding their feet and deciding who to be friends with. By this time next year, end of Year 8, they will probably have settled into different groups. Quite often the ones they make friends with in the first year are not the ones they end up with.

It is very hard though to watch one's child wanting to be 'one of the gang'. I am only able to offer this advice with hindsight, being on my 3rd teen now, so am much more laid back about the whole thing.

Also there are very differing levels of maturity in year 7, both physical and mental, so some of the boys will be reaching puberty and grown up and others are still children really and this can impact upon friendship groups.

It will be fine in the end, I am sure. You just have to grin and bear it to a certain extent.

It is farily common for the sporty alpha set to fail to excel once out of school.

No one is trying to push anyone into anything. A teenager must make his own choices. However, this sound slike a fairly unpleasant group. I would never encourage my child to ingratiate himself with a group who show him nothing but disdain.

AFAIK "party invitations" in Yr 7 are not the done thing ...more like nonchalantly drop paint balling/trip to a film into conversation or arrange it via MySpace or Facebook. So maybe these boys socialise in a different way to your son.

Not all the dcs can be "cool" or (thank goodness!) want to be cool. The summer is nearly here and the long holiday is always a good time to drop some friends and work on cultivating others.

These boys are probably not destined to be his friends but there will be others there for him.

Just hang on to the end of term and use the summer to good effect.

Hope the party/"gathering" goes well!

Well, yes, I suppose it is a 'gang'. I was thinking more of the knife-wielding kind.
I don't think there is anything wrong at all about encouraging someone, whatever age, to consider themselves an individual and that it's not the end of the world if the 'in-crowd' don't embrace you.

While I wouldn't expect teens to always act in an adult manner, I don't think it does any harm to encourage a more mature outlook. Feeding a teens obsessions or misguided views isn't helping them to mature imo.

it's quite painful isn't it? I'd do what Pointy suggests too. I think he has to work it out for himself, but not harm in some gentle nudging from you.

The sporting gods do appear v. attractive, they're the alphas, especially to those with a hope of a look-in. .

I tend to think that the alpha set don't always bear up to their promise, and the beta set are the ones that come through trumps. But I have a lot vested in this belief

"Just imagine if this was a gang."

It is a gang of sorts. That is the nature of the teenage years - tribal behaviour. It is very wrong to want to push a teenager into adult-style individualism at this stage. Teenage years are for identifying with a peer group and being part of a crowd. Only if this stage of development is navigated successfully can a teenager emerge as a fully-rounded individual, autonomous adult later on.

I get very with posters who think their teenagers should behave like adults.

Oh music. Is he in a band? Or orchestra, something like that? That's an area to encourage

I agree with everything Scaryteacher said. What is it with queen bees and sports gods? They're a pretty unappealing bunch quite frankly and best avoided.

However, at this age you cant really direct your childrens friendships and they do have to learn from mistakes.

It sounds as though he could do with some self-confidence - so that he can feel comfortable in himslef and not 'need' to be with this group. But I'm not quite sure how to do that. Does he have any other interests or talents especially outside school?

I agree with scaryteacher.
Just imagine if this was a gang. Would people be so quick to encourage him to ape their style to fit in?

Scaryteacher's advice "I would encourage your son to be an individual and make other friends." much more sensible.

It is not just boys who value sport above academic achievement. Unfortunately most young people - and older people - are happy to celebrate sport but slightly embarrassed to celebrate brains. Teachers can also be guilty of this.

Not necessarily. Sporting prowess can be a good indicator of success in later life... Academics aren't everything.

ONly talented in sport then, not in academic achievement.

Gently encourage your son to go in a different direction while allowing him to do as he wants.