When you can never be part of the 'elect'

Agree with OrmIrian. It's not only about warning dcs against drugs and sex; I want them to be aware of the more subtle dangers of trying to be in with the in-crowd at all costs. When you become so dependent on being in the tribe that you will compromise with your own values, even if that means developing a nasty and exclusive attitude towards other people, then the advantage of belonging doesn't seem very great to me. I would rather dd was a good person, but lonely, than someone who had to be popular at all costs.

I totally agree the adolescence is a vitally important time to develop your independence from parents. And to a certain extent if a new haircut or a new pair of trainers is going to help a child feel more confident I see no problem with supporting them in that way. And, yes most adolescents like to be part of a group. But if the group that a child yearns to be with are unpleasant and exclusive, I wouldn't want to keep pushing and encouraging him/her to try to belong. Why would you? Adult life isn't about striving to be somewhere you aren't wanted is it? And changing yourself to fit in?

It is good training for adult life-if you live in our village anyway

He didn't reply rudely to his face. He said something rude when he thought that OP's DS was out of earshot.

Erm, wasn't that the point of the OP's post: that her son had invited them to a party and one of them had replied very rudely? And that another one had been round to the house fairly frequently?

Can I put the other side of the story. My DS is sporty and I know that he can be a bit boisterous at times and self-satisfied in that way that competitive people are (you don't succeed if you spend all the time thinking that you are not as good as the next man). But his mum is there in the background: constantly, gently reminding him to have a bit of humility and humanity. On the whole, he is a nice chap (honest: he must be cos his mates voted him captain the other day).
Your DS's sports gods mates may not be as bad as you think. Why don't you invite them round in the holidays, too, and you may be pleasantly surprised. Alternatively, if they are asses at your house then your DS may start to see them through your eyes.

Isn't there a wider issue here of whether we can (or should) help our dcs to develop the skills to fit in with any group (within reason) that they want to belong to, even if it is not the group we would want them to be in? haven't most of us had children round to play at one time or another that we don't particularly like because that is who our dc wants to be friends with? Isn't this just an extension of that?

The reality of cliques is that they will be there throughout life (look at all the posts about playground politics from the (usually) mums. is there a case to say that part of our job as parents is to equip our children to cope, either by making compromises on their own preferences if that is what they want to do, or by helping them to see that there are alternatives to not being true to one's self?

I think I may be straying dangerously close to agreeing with Bonsoir Anna!

He has to sort it out for himself, with you there to listen with no 'told you they were wrong'uns' if need be

You don't want to be unintentionally giving him the message that you think they're out of his league

And who was it who said, 'You wanna run fast, you gotta run with the fast crowd'?

My adolescent has a nice life thank you Anna and was most amused by this thread yesterday. His take was that he doesn't want to be part of a tribe as he likes what he likes and if his friends do great, and if not, they agree to differ, whilst still remaining friends.

I also think it's really important that they feel able to ignore peer pressure as sometimes peer pressure can lead to horrendous things happening.

As for me engineering his adolescence, yes I may have to at some stage. At present, he is a typical 13 yo who has given me no cause for concern as yet. Everyone parents differently, I am evidently not as laissez-faire as you about some things, and having seen up close what the effects of drugs can be on adolescents, I am not going to be either.

My ds was made aware of the pitfalls (drugs and alcohol)at a time that was appropriate for him, so your arrogance is breathtaking in suggesting that I haven't done what I needed to do when he was younger. Just because they are adolescents doesn't mean they don't need parenting - they need it more than ever at this stage; they need to know where the boundaries are and the consequences if they overstep them.

I agree with you bonsoiranna about the conversations from an early age. Unfortunately, for some children, it all seems to fly out the window once puberty hits and popular peers can become attractive proposition despite going against all the early parental advice.

Just as an aside, if sporting excellence is important to your son, and he is reasonably atheletic, then it is far easier to excel in an obscure sport. Football seems to me to be the only real option for boys. But there are lots of options out there.

Just look at Tom Dayly, admittedly he got to the olympics aged 13, but how many other boys in his school do you think took up diving as a sport? If your son chooses something less popular, then the chances are he may well be the best person in the school at it. Aged 19 I took up a sport and rapidly ended up playing at national level. Not, I hasten to add, because I am in any way talented, but because so few people played it, the pool of players was small enough to allow a slight klutz like me to flourish.

Y7 is the hardest year of all their school years (DSs are 17 and 13). I think the key to his happiness and self-acceptance is your son finding his thing, be it chess, tennis, maths or creative writing.

Obviously you need to keep a very close eye on things all the time and nip things that are seriously dangerous in the bud. And maybe you have a very reckless child who despite your best intentions and preparation is very easily led.

But I do think, always, that education is the very best sort of preparation for new experiences. If you have not had lots of conversations during their primary years with your children about drugs, sex, alcohol etc, how on earth can they reasonably be expected to navigate those things to their own advantage when they come across them?

So what do you do when they interpret real danger as something exciting and the idea is reinforced by peers who encourage them, dismissing parental warnings/advice.

Adolescence is about so much more than school work.

Of course peer pressure has an influence - which is a good thing. Adolescents fiercely need to be exposed to influences beyond those of their parents in their teenage years.

You need to make sure that you have got the very important stuff in place when they are little so that they have the necessary survival skills to reject real danger and navigate (try and test) the options during the relative security of teenage years, when parents and home are still around to provide a secure backdrop.

Otherwise you risk your children either derailing, or else not exploring their options properly.

"If you are engineering your children's adolescence you probably didn't do what you needed to do during their childhood."

And peer pressure, wanting to be part of the crowd has no influence at all then.

Whether an adolescent was attracted to that type of thing would also be dependant on personality and peers among other things.

I went to a school where there were lots of drugs. Since my mother had carefully prepped me and my sister during our primary years about drugs, we were never tempted (even if we were friends with children who did do drugs). If you are engineering your children's adolescence you probably didn't do what you needed to do during their childhood.

Bonsoiranna, would it really not bother you if your dc got in with the 'druggie crowd'?
You wouldn't attempt to steer a child of yours away from that sort of life.
Granted you might not have any success but surely it would be worth a try.

Good luck to you, scaryteacher, engineering your adolescents' lives for them!

You misread my post. I did NOT say that it was the poorer children who despised the richer; but that it was those who have, who tend to exclude those who have not based on your example of the 'right' clothing. You agreed that it was fine for the poorer children to be excluded from the elect on that basis.

I also vehemently disagree with you about having preconceived ideas about which tribe you would like your children to be with....'oh that's fine, have a great time deciding if you want to be with the druggies today dear'. I don't think so. My duty as a parent is to ensure that my ds is not involved in what I think is the wrong tribe, and to discourage him from being with them. I have seen what happen when parents aren't firm enough, and I am not going to let that happen in my family. I am not there to be ds's best friend, but his parent, and that means saying no firmly and loudly on occasions.

I certainly haven't noticed that .

Adolescence is about being tribal, and taking time to work out which tribe you feel most comfortable with. It doesn't have to be super aggressively so, but it is really important for parents and teachers not to have preconceived ideas about which tribe they would like a child to be in (or think "would be best").

And telling children whose parents cannot afford stuff for them to despise those children whose parents perversely can leads to those children believing they don't deserve nice things and a nice life.

In life we are all indeed different. Geeky is not better than sporty; children need to find out for themselves where they want to be.