Are 'faith schools' more or less divisive than Grammar and Independent schools

Oh and I don't actually know anyone who even goes to church on a Holy Day of Obligation, let alone takes the day off (most churches I've attended offer an evening service, so time off isn't required for that), the only days I think (a good chuck of my family are Catholic, which is how I was brought up) that are regularly kept are the Holy Week services and Ash Wednesday. Some of the Holy Days are a little obscure

Where we used to live, the choices in our borough would have been two failing single sex schools (closest and most likely); two highly successful and exclusive single sex schools (quite local but a very small catchment area, didn't include us); a mixed non faith schools (but tricky to get to and into because of distance). Further afield, but with different catchments, there were the (mixed) catholic and CoE schools (one of each and busable) and then two grammar schools, very nasty journey, plus, guess what single sex and religious.

So as a family that don't like single sex schools, and wouldn't touch a religious school with a bargepole, basically no choice at all.

However, we moved to Canada, where in our town you do go to the local primary (automatic admission) although you can choose to go elsewhere, few people do (there are elementary schools offering Montessori, French Immersion, Science or Arts specialisations). At secondary level there are three schools, which again have automatic entry. All the schools have excellent results, and I have yet to hear anyone complain about the school their children attend, or worry about entry at elementary or high school.

There are two private church schools, but they are seriously religious, and require parental volunteerism as well as regular attendance and priestly sign off. Very much a minority choice.

My view is that all selective schools are divisive by nature (how can they not be), but I would include single sex, grammars and independent schools in the debate.

In the Catholic faith, they're called Holy Days of Obligation for a reason snorkle. Although recently, many of them have been moved to a Sunday to enable workers to go to church.
Brighton and Hove tried to break down the divisive nature of schools with their lottery idea, and that didn't please a lot of people either.
Would you be happy with a child going to a Catholic school if they had to pray 4 times a day, attend mass, RE given the same weighting as Science in the curriculum, anti-homosexuality, anti-contraception and family planning as some of the hurdles to face?

Perhaps only those with Chelsea Tractors can afford to take all the holy days off zanzibar? It's obviously not prescribed by the religions themselves, just the way it works out in practice.

No problem with 'faith schools per se, tho' personally think a load of mumbo-jumbo, but it is not very charitable to exclude non-beleivers - surely they should be welcoming all-comers, particularly the poorest and the nrearest. The fact that they apply rigorous and discrimatory rules to exclude outsiders gives the worst possible example of their 'faith' to the children in those schools. They are a cop-out for parent like Tony Blair and David Cameron that enable them conveniently to reject the 20 or so nearer schools to thier home on the grounds of 'faith'.

I don't really see how this multicultural argument works. If you are in a predominantly white area and most of the non-white kids are at the Catholic school (which presumably is the scenario you are talking about, goblinchild?), that leaves you with very few non-white kids in the community school. So how does that help social integration?

A lot of parents who live in tough neighbourhoods don't want their children to go to the local secondary. When I worked in Oldham, the daughter of one of the governors at the school said she was going to the local C of E comp because it was the best. I asked if she was going to be happy with attending church on a weekly basis, and Christian prayers every day. her father complained that those conditions were racist and excluded Muslims.
Didn't get anywhere with it.
Bear in mind that in some areas, a Catholic faith school may well be the most multicultural one in the area.

My area is like Concordia's. There are no non-Catholic children at either of our local Catholic schools. In these cases giving priority to one group effectively means excluding another.

I think there should be a lot more schools that recruit pupils along different criteria. The more varied the choice for all, the more likely there is to be a school to suit everyone and the more socially inclusive of everyone as a whole the system will be.

I live in an area where there are many failing schools adn a shortage of school places. at least at the moment as the birth rate was high 3/4/5 years ago. So non-Catholics can't get into catholic schools, meaing only catholics get good education in some areas. I think faith schools are divisive but then so are grammars.

I would think that Catholic schools vary quite a lot dependiong on the area. Ours is semi rural and under subscribed therefore lots of Catholics (obv) plus non Catholic religious people who would rather have a Catholic school than a non faith school, plus people who have chosen based on ofstead or location. There are a mix of working class (Catholics and non Catholics) due to school being in the middle of a large council estate, plus lots of middle class (Catholics and non Catholics) who come from further away but chose the school for either religious, social or academic reasons. If it was oversubscribed then I imagine it would only have Catholics from whatever socio-economic group lived closest.

But how many faith schools actually exclude people from a different, or no, faith?

DD is at a Catholic secondary and went to a Catholic primary. Both schools accept children who are non-Catholics, though when places are allocated children who are Catholics get first priority.

There are children in her class who are CofE and at her primary in year 6 one of her best friends was a Muslim girl. Doesn't seem very divisive to me...

Of course they are divisive. Grammar schools divide the intelligent from the less intelligent, independent schools divide the wealthy from the less wealthy and faith schools divide on faith lines. I think all these things are damaging to the wellbeing of a multicultural society as a whole - in theory - but feel free to call me a hypocrite as I send the dcs to an independent school.

zanzibarmum, it's long been noted that faith schools attract fewer working class pupils than they should, presumably as the faiths have fewer working class members.

see here and here for example.

I seem to remember that CofE is supposed to be worse than Catholic in this regard.

Anna, do you have any suggestions as to how social division in schools might be reduced? Or you happy with the status quo?

Have just had a look at the Accord website. Thoroughly agree with the Rabbi.

I wanted my dcs to go to the nearest Catholic school because I didn't want them to be the only non white children in the school (had racial probs at toddler group). From that pov the Catholic school is more inclusive than the catchment school. That wouldn't happen in a more multi ethnic area though.

Apart from anything else, lotteries create huge (insurmountable) transport headaches/costs.

zanzibar - what is the new admissions code? Presumably it is still the case that faith schools are able to choose children on the basis of church attendance?

I don't think people could stomach lotteries - the govt obviously agree which is why it sacked the idea of introducing them further.

Well, there are always lotteries if people could stomach them.

"But this is a very difficult problem to unravel."

No - not "very difficult". Impossible.

It's true that the way in which house prices are affected by catchment areas is a cause of division. But this is a very difficult problem to unravel. Abolishing special admission criteria for faith schools would be a relatively simple move towards fairness. I also think abolishing league tables might help too, as they surely fuel this manic drive amongst those with the resources to do so to get their children into the "best" schools.