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Original poster

Tutoring for selective school- how do you know if it's right for your child?

34 replies

cluttered · 10/06/2009 00:08

DS1 is in Year 4 and September birthday so one of the oldest in class. We have just started having him tutored weekly with a view to passing the exam for a selective school, the exam will be in about 16 months. I am just wondering if we are doing the right thing though or are we pushing him too hard? His primary school doesn't set much homework so having to do homework in between tutor lessons is a shock and he does complain about it.

If he were really upset about it we would stop the lessons and he says he does want to try for this school when pressed but I was just wondering how other parents using tutors have found their children have reacted. Obviously I wouldn't expect him to be eager to do the homework but how much complaining is normal and how much indicates that we're making him unhappy? Part of me thinks he should be enjoying the freedom of the last years of primary school and the other part thinks it will be good practice for secondary when he will have to do homework anyhow.

If he were struggling academically he might see the benefit more but because he is already doing well he complains that he is the only one in his class having to do extra work. He does coerce me into buying him sweets, comics etc that I wouldn't normally because of the extra lessons and homework but if I asked him to do the lessons for no extra treats I don't think he would be too happy. At this age should he be able to understand deferred gratification and should he want to do it completely of his own volition or is a little persuasion acceptable?

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Original poster
cluttered · 12/06/2009 18:28

2009, I think DP may be opposed to independent schooling (although OK with selective strangely). I went to an independent secondary and got a good education but did feel dissatisfied with our family's standard of living compared to that of my classmates, although my parents could afford to pay so we obviously weren't that badly off! Living in innercity London I think DS feels quite well off since we have a house plus garden and some of his friends live in flats. So wouldn't want him to go anywhere where he was amongst mainly very well-off children, a range would be fine though. Not sure if we would qualify for means-tested bursary or not, theoretically if we were less rubbish with money we could probably just about afford it as we bought our house when prices were low so mortgage quite reasonable. We don't qualify for any family tax credit whatsoever which apparently makes us in the top 10% of household incomes though it doesn't feel like it!

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2009 · 12/06/2009 13:28

Cluttered, would you consider the independent sector? There are still some good bursaries available (means tested) and I know of one child who lives not far from Hackney who got into Latymer and was subsequently offered the opportunity to try for bursary at an independent school. He now goes there and is very happy.

Original poster
cluttered · 12/06/2009 12:55

Thanks frogs. DS1 is clearly above average, has been predicted all level 5s at KS2 STS with 99% likelihood and is getting some Year 5 work already at school and is finding it all easy. I think he thinks he is brighter than he is though because he always finishes his work first but it is an inner city school and quite a lot of the kids are struggling academically.

The tutor is focusing on improving his handwriting and spelling which need some attention and checking his basic knowledge of maths so all good stuff. I am hoping that if he doesn't get in we can approach the academy that would be our second choice and get him a place based on his performance in the Latymer entrance tests. We wouldn't get offered a place at this academy as their admission criteria give you low priority if you are close to another co-ed non-denominational school and a new academy is opening this September just up the road. However, I don't really like its location or speciality but have heard that the first academy keeps some places back to offer to academically able children

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frogs · 12/06/2009 09:25

yy, including stuff they won't have covered is barking, but there you go.

Cluttered, I don't think there's an exact cut-off point above or below which you should/shouldn't apply to selective schools. Bearing in mind there are 10 applicants for each place, there will be loads of kids who don't get in who could actually have coped perfectly well in one of those schools. We're in London too, but probably not trying for Latymer as it's a bit too far away. My older dc did 11+ a few years ago (successfully).

Ask yourself: is the child coping easily with the primary school curriculum? Do you get the feeling that he/she is coasting a bit and could easily crank it up a notch or two? Go and look at the selective school, see what you think and what the child thinks. Explain the concept to the child and see what reaction youget. How sensitive is the child to competition and failure? It also depends what your other school options are -- it's easier to be laid back if you have a reasonable comprehensive nearby or can afford to pay for private non-selective.

The decision needs to factor in all of these -- ie. if the child is clearly outstandingly able then it might make sense to talk the selective system up a bit, and help them to get over the sensitivity. Ditto an averagely bright but lazy and robust child. I'd be a bit more wary about pushing a child who was only averagely bright and not hugely confident into the whole selection process. What is really not a good idea is cramming a child of average ability until the pips squeak so try and get them into a school where they will be in the bottom 15% of the ability range. Not a good place to spend 5 years.

If you think he can cope with a bit of extra work and with the potential disappointment of not getting in, then you have nothing to lose by trying, as long as you don't make a big deal of it. I don't think giving loads of extra work in Y4 is a good idea, but a little bit extra might not hurt (though you don't really need to pay someone to do it). It depends whether the tutor is teaching in a way that will help the child progress in all areas of schoolwork, or whether it is designed as an exam-cramming factory. The former is fine, the latter not great imo.

madminnie · 11/06/2009 19:39

Must come to cluttered's support here! Our dd did Latymer tests last year and I can assure everyone you definitely need to have covered Yr 6 maths work by the October of Yr 6. It's not just reasoning tests but maths as well. You definitely need some tutor support to give a bright child a reasonable chance. This certainly does not mean they will struggle when/if they get there. These N London grammars are incredibly competitive and many of the kids trying are coming from preps and high-achieving state primaries. Past papers are available from the school at their open day in September. Your tutor should have copies of these in any case if they are preparing a child for Latymer.

However, I would be wary of two sessions per week in Year 4. It's a very long slog if you start this early and I'm not convinced you would necessarily gain that much by such a long preparation, particularly if you're already having to 'bribe' ds at this early stage. One session a week from Year 5 would be fine IMO. CAT me if you'd like more info.

We've been through Latymer entrance twice now - once successfully, once not.

Quattrocento · 11/06/2009 19:35

Sorry to the OP, and thanks to Frogs. I hadn't understood that some schools include a test on stuff that has been learned (or not, as the case may be). Which truly makes it a barking system, no?

And yes, DD is at an independent prep school - a selective prep school - but the 11+ exam was not something she prepared for at school. Mind you I wonder if we are still talking about the same sort of issue because I distinctly remember having to teach DD to do simultaneous equations. Not properly with that long formula thingy but, you know, the logic of swapping sides of the equation. It took all of 15 minutes. It was pretty well the only thing I had to teach her. Total time investment by the parent-tutor (ho-ho) was 10 hours - 8 hours for the practice papers and 2 hours to cover the stuff DD got wrong. She's not even going to the blessed school now (long story).

MrsBartlet · 11/06/2009 15:39

It is difficult to know if your child is the natural ability to fit in at a grammar (esp a super-selective) before they start but I think you know whether your child is bright or not. From what you say about your son he sounds a lot like dd was at primary - in the top few in a large mixed ability state junior school. She is now in Y7 of a highly selective grammar and fits in very well. Whilst I would say she is bright, she is certainly not genius level . Go with your gut instinct. I seem to remember reading somewhere that what they were looking for were the top 2/3 from each primary in terms of academic ability.

We started tutoring dd in Y4 and I will not start that early with ds. It wasn't a struggle to get her to work as she likes working but even still she was fed up of it by the time the exam came round. Ds will have a year of tutoring prior to the exam and that will be that.

You do need to see past papers as they are all different depending on where you are applying. For dd's school the English paper is notoriously difficult. It is only comprehension (no creative writing - which she would have loved as that is her strong point!) but the texts are usually from 19th century classics - Tess of the D'Ubervilles and Mill on the Floss being used previously.

Original poster
cluttered · 11/06/2009 15:02

Thanks frogs, might I ask if you live in London?

How DO you tell if your child is at the right level of natural ability though, is being top of the class and on G&T register in a very mixed ability primary school sufficient? He is bright but not "gifted" in the true sense (My sister is/was gifted and was working two years ahead at primary school, got the top marks nationally in the equivalent of GSCE and A levels in the country I come from, DS1 is bright but not to that extent).

His teacher suggested that we consider it intially at the first parent-teacher meeting of the year but then seemed to backtrack a bit when I asked him subsequently for more information and I'm not sure if that was because his opinion of DS1 changed or he felt that he shouldn't have suggested it?

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frogs · 11/06/2009 14:49

Quattro, that is factually incorrect.

The maths papers in particular test topics that most primary schools will not have covered until Y6, if at all (simple algebraic expressions comes to mind).

The English exams (if they are non MCQ) test will need a style of essay-writing and exam technique that again is not taught in most primary schools to anything like the same standard. The comprehension questions may also be more sophisticated.

This is particularly the case in London where the 11+ is a huge bunfight and not a pass/fail test.

It's great that your dd passed without any tutoring, but I thought she had been at a private prep school in any case? You simply cannot compare the kind of curriculum a child in even a nonselective prep school will get with the daily fare of a standard primary school.

Which is not to say that I think tutoring is a great idea, and certainly not if it involves cramming a child whose natural ability is not at the right level. And I think Y4 is probably a bit early to start. But taking a year to make sure that your child is up to speed with maths and English content and technique is not at all unreasonable, whether you do it yourself or pay someone else.

The level of obsessiveness over VR and NVR that you find on the 11+ website is barking though -- a few familiarisation sessions with different question and paper formats should be all that's needed. Maths and English is a whole 'nother ballgame, and do need a bit of extra input ime.

mimsum · 11/06/2009 14:38

English papers are pretty standardly half comprehension and half creative writing - but warn your ds that the creative writing topics are often stupendously dull - they're looking for the kids who can turn a potentially boring subject into something they'd want to read

We didn't tutor ds1 for entrance exams (independents, we don't live in a grammar area) but he sailed through. However, I am going to ask a tutor to assess ds2 (y4) as he's very different from ds1 and I'd only want to put him through the exams if I was confident he'd pass easily. The dc's primary school, while lovely, isn't very good at giving an objective idea of progress - I know what NC level he's on, but that doesn't tell me much as all the children applying would be at least that standard. If the tutor tells me he's borderline, or would need intensive tutoring to get him through, we'll go to plan B

mummyrex · 11/06/2009 14:20

perhaps you could ask someone, a teacher or tutor who knows the system and that you can trust. And it needs to be someone who knows the Latymer test.

Also I have always found the 11 plus forum to be very helpful so perhaps ask over there elevenplusexams.co.uk/forum/11plus/index.php

oh, and apologies for my typing, obviously not my forte (along with proof-reading!)

Original poster
cluttered · 11/06/2009 13:14

In response to mummyrex I know that there are VR, NVR, maths and English tests for Latymer so would be very interested in anyone who knows whether the maths and English tests do cover Year 6 work. I won't be able to tell from seeing the papers and nor will DS1 since he is only Year 4 at the moment so can't distinguish between Y5 and Y6 work

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Original poster
cluttered · 11/06/2009 13:11

Yes I will try to get past papers but we are using the same tutor that got another boy from DC's school a place, whereas another allegedly brighter boy who just practised previous papers missed out. Hence he must have some idea. But yes, as you say it is in his interest to do lots of tutoring so I do want to see what the school requires.

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seeker · 11/06/2009 12:57

cluttered, I REALLY think you need to get hold of some past papers. Or get from the school details of the sort of thing they are looking for. There have been cases of tutors getting it wrong - and (with apologies to any tutors0 they do have a vested interest in doing as much tutoring as possible. It sounds as if you are relying on the tutor a lot - I would go for the horse's mouth if I were you!

mummyrex · 11/06/2009 12:16

Hi QC

I agree that tutoring is a bad thind but I just need to corrects you. Some test in some areas DO cover Y6 work. We are in Bucks so it is only verbal-reasoning for us but at least one of the schools in neighboring Slouh has a maths test which includes material that state-primary children will not have covered by the time they tahe the test in November. Other areas therefore probably also have this - especially in 'super-selective' areas where only the top performers are accepted.

Original poster
cluttered · 11/06/2009 11:38

Thanks for everyone's opinion. I haven't seen any of the school's previous papers so have no way of knowing what level of curriculum knowledge is required. I would be very interested to hear from anybody who has experience of DC sitting the test for Latymer in Edmonton as I am basing our approach on the experience of 2 boys from my son's school, both quite bright. One was tutored and got a place, the other practised previous papers and was placed about 250 on the list of applicants with only the top 180 getting in. According to the teachers the second boy was slightly brighter. The boy who did get a place is coping well so wasn't pushed beyond his ability.

The tutor is doing Year 5 work with my son but also trying to brush his basic skills such as improving his handwriting, spelling and pushing him to learn his times tables properly so this is actually beneficial in itself. I also like having an idea of what is in the Curriculum because the school doesn't send work home apart from spellings and reading books and times tables.

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Quattrocento · 11/06/2009 01:06

Sorry - just read this line - don't know how I missed it before:

"The tutor says he needs to have covered all of Year 6 work by the time of the test (October so the start of his Year 6)so has started doing Year 5 work with him now."

So now I understand why you think that your DS needs to have covered the Y6 curriculum but I cannot believe that this is true. The tests simply don't test knowledge. I'd suggest having a word with a different tutor to audit your current tutor's opinion.

Secondly have you thought about the effect of pre-teaching the curriculum on your DC? You say he is a bit bored in class already. Can't imagine he is going to be enjoying his school work much if he's done it already ...

SOLOisMeredithGrey · 11/06/2009 00:48

I can't help thinking 'pushy parents' when I hear of children being tutored for the selective tests. My Ds wasn't tutored and passed it and he's an August baby. I didn't even know about tutoring for the tests, but even if I had and had been able to afford it, I definitely wouldn't have sent him for the extra. They have enough work as KS2 pupils and will get a sharp kick up the bum regardless of the KS3 school they go to as regards homework etc. As long as they aren't falling behind, let them pass because they can, not because you've made sure they will.

Just my humble opinion btw

Quattrocento · 11/06/2009 00:33

I fully appreciate and understand that you want to make the best of this opportunity.

It's just that I genuinely feel that tutoring is another symptom of parental guilt.

Honestly they do not test knowledge. Not at all - there's no question of his having to learn the Y6 curriculum.

Why don't you have an honest conversation with the tutor? I've met lots of people who do/have done this tutoring thing but no-one that's started quite so early.

Original poster
cluttered · 11/06/2009 00:26

Yes but as Gimme Chocolate says if you live in an area where there are few selective schools then those that do exist can be more selective. In a GS area eg Kent I assume most children would sit the 11+ so even if only 10% got in it would be the top 10% from children with a wide range of abilities. DS1 would definitely pass on doing practice papers if he just had to be in the top 10% of his class/year. If the school only takes 10% of applicants but only the top pupils apply the school can make the test harder by covering work that only tutored children would know. Doesn't mean they are brighter, just a way of selecting. Can DS1 really learn the whole of Year 6 curriculum in Maths and English by doing a few practice papers?

Your DD may be really gifted whereas DS1 is only gifted in the G&T sense of the top 10%, but I still think he would benefit from this school. Our problem is the local school he would be offered a place at is only opening this September so no idea what it will be like so we want to keep our options open. Doesn't mean I'm not agonising over whether we're doing the right thing. DS2, now, would love to be tutored, his favourite thing is mental maths but unfortunately he's only 5.

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Quattrocento · 10/06/2009 23:56

I'm assuming we are talking state grammar school entrance

These don't test acquired knowledge (particularly - more below) they just test processing power.

What your DCs need to do is understand the type of question and the format of the exam and this is done through the practice paper stuff.

There are one or two types of question which do carry some assumed knowledge - like which is an x axis and which a y axis. Also the degrees of a circle and a triangle. You will cover this through doing practice papers.

I honestly think all this tutoring stuff is a complete con.

Original poster
cluttered · 10/06/2009 23:50

But QC if the test covers year 6 work and it is only October how will they do it unless they have been tutored? I know that some children from independent schools will be sitting this test and presumably they have done the work at school so will have an advantage.

I just think if we are going to attempt it we should give it our best shot. I don't want him tutored to above his ability so that he would struggle if he got a place, I just want to put him on a level with independent school and other tutored children. I heard from another Mum that her son didn't get in with doing practice papers but his friend did by being tutored, both boys are bright but the one who missed out is apparently more capable.

Also he is missing out on an hour of computer/TV time twice a week, will that really hurt him? He complains he is bored at school waiting round for the rest of the class to finish so maybe could do with a bit of stretching.

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Quattrocento · 10/06/2009 23:29

I say this time after time on selective school entrance threads

DON'T TUTOR

They don't need it. Just go through a few practice exams.

Poor little mite - drilled to death for 18 months!!

Original poster
cluttered · 10/06/2009 23:26

Seeker, the tutor comes to our house so really it just means he gets less time on the computer or maybe misses the Simpsons or Dr Who repeats! He doesn't do any extra activities during the week (but does sports and music lessons at weekend) and 3 of 5 days we pick him up at half three from school, home by 3.45. He doesn't need much sleep (will read in bed until 10.30 pm) so he does have lots of free time in the evening even with the lessons. He has just said to me tonight he is fine with the lessons but doesn't like the homework so maybe we will keep up the two lessons but ask for less homework. I do think we can't keep up this pace for 16 months even though we have only recently started!

The tutor has said he would recommend 2 lessons per week but we could probably still get there with 1 per week.

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GrapefruitMoon · 10/06/2009 19:56

This is an interesting thread cluttered - none of the state schools in our borough are selective but most are heavily over-subscribed. I think ds1 would fare better in a mixed school but he is unlikely to get into one in our borough (unless I opt for a failing one which will probably be shut eventually). There is a selective school in an adjacent borough which does accept children from here. The website says that there is no need to prepare for the entrance exam but I bet most kids do get some coaching!

I can imagine that I would have the same problems with my ds as you are having if he had extra homework as a result of tutoring - it is a nightmare getting him to do the minimal amount he gets at school. He is very bright, esp at maths but very lazy also!