Grammar versus State, what's really different?

The Ghastly Grammar School System is still alive and well and showing, sadly, no signs of dying here in Kent!

Grammars also still going in south/south west london - sutton and kingston have them.

Quite a lot of counties have non fee paying grammar schools: Wilts, Glos, Lincs, Herts, Warks, Yorks, Essex. You'd think they'd never been 'abolished'!!

messy - 11+ still exists in other counties as well as Kent. Bucks and Berks, for instance.

Not strict at our GS either! Is very selective so only top 120 get places. No probs with discipline really, just a few slightly 'naughty' ones (who are not a problem in the realms of real life disobedience...). The local high achieving comp is MUCH stricter and also seems to dole out much more homework of the project variety.

In some parts of the country, all the grammar schools are fee paying - i think Kent is the exception.

if you are doing the 11+ again, i think its only kent that still does this, the grammars are streamed by ability as their entrance criteria, so they take the more able children so achieve better results, better results attracts more funding, equals better facilities etc.

They can be very academic and a bit hot house, and not every child even if they are bright can cope with the pressure.

I think from the last 2 answers grammar schools do differ in terms of discipline and styles of management. I'm just stating what I know happens inat my neck of the woods. Some grammar schools haves a catchment area whereas other allow anyone to enter for the 11+ and you get in if you scored highly enough.

They certainly don't address the teachers as sir/miss at dd's grammar. There is a very relaxed attitide between the girls and their teachers. Also in this area the grammars take the top 5% at most - they have no catchment area and are highly competitive to get into hence the amazing results!

Mumzy - discipline is far stricter at DD2's comp than it is at DD1's grammar - it has to be as many of the children are less motivated to learn. DD1 finds that the girls are only competitive over sport because ability varies more than it does in academic subjects. She spent a brief time at a comp and said the teachers were amazing - they had to be to try to reach some of the kids, but at the grammar she says they tend to be a bit complacent and don't have to make so much effort to be interesting - just her opinion.

Also, catchment for grammar covers such a wide area that they're certainly not getting 10 - 25% of the most able. Many more are creamed off by the private sector.

"teachers addresses as Sir/Miss"

not at ours, mumzy - teachers are either addressed by title & surname or not by name at all (frequently the latter ). Sir/Miss is positively frowned upon.

At local high school/comp however Sir & Miss are de rigueur.

Funny, eh?

just to answer your question runnerbean grammar schools have stunning exam results because they take the top 10-25% of the academically most able children. The teachers are able to teach at a much faster pace and set more challenging work as a result (no remedial classes here) and this can make the children very competitive with each other. There's no getting away from the fact that GS's priority is academic results and children who can't keep up find it very difficult. GS tend to run on much more traditional lines, teachers addresses as Sir/Miss, standing up when an adult enters the classroom and lots of rules, detentions etc. Its whether you feel this is the right environment for your dd after the freedom of being homeschooled. Historically when most of the areas of the country lost its grammar schools in the 70s some of the buildings were reopened as private schools but still retained the title of grammar school ie. Manchester grammar school.

DS1's independent school was once direct grant and now operates a bursary system. The headmaster says he would like the school to be regarded more as a grammar school than a public school (i.e. pupils are there on merit, not because their parents are wealthy).

Edam - I went to the same sort of place as your mum, and I'm not a millionaire either! I hated every minute of it - stuck out like a sore thumb with my caravan holidays and no tennis court! DD2 went to a private prep for a short time and it was much more mixed socially than my school.

Sorry, OP, we're hijacking a bit

Mind you, my uncle who failed 11+ and went to the secondary modern (unlike my father) is now a millionaire (unlike my father). Sigh...

And my DH

His direct grant school, is now completely private and very posh.

Just to add to zanzibarmum's very simple explanation - many of the very academic schools in the private sector were once direct grant schools, i.e. the very top scorers in the 11+ got to go there for free (and the schools got public funding).

That's how my mother, the daughter of a shoemaker, ended up going to school with yer genuine toffs.

We're also in the country, ds at grammar school with large catchment. I worked out recently that I clock up between 100 and 120 miles on average over the weekend ferrying him around. Roll on driving lessons in 2.5 years!

BG - we too live in the country.
Ho hum - my liver could do with the rest

At grammar schools the pranks are more sophisticated.

Litchick - doesn't help that we live in a small village, school is in a big town 20 miles away and DD finds most of the girls have completely different interests. I've encouraged as many activities as possible which aren't school based so she does have some friends locally but she's had to get used to buses and trains pretty much from day 1. She's just started to go out in the evenings so I'm picking her up from parties then having a forty minute drive home - it's certainly cut down my alcohol consumption!

That's interesting BG as I'm currently coosing a school for DD to go on to at 11 and I just can't imagine what's she's going to need at 15. I live in mortal fear of becomming a taxi service.

I've got one DD at a comp, another at a state grammar.

Grammar - superb academically but all girls which I regret. Also, distance for us has meant problems with social life and after school activities which had never occurred to me when we were looking around when she was 11 . However, on balance still the best choice for DD1. She will be going to local college for A levels as she deserves a life and it's excellent academically. I wouldn't say she's ever felt under pressure.

Comp - possibly a more rounded education in terms of things DD2 gets to try, after school clubs, social mix etc but you have to be really committed at this particular school to rise above the behaviour and the anti-geek mentality of some of the children. Fantastic teachers and DD2 is extremely happy but worries about not achieving in noisy classes.

I'd ask how they would cope with a child so far advanced academically. DD2 hasn't made much real progress which really worries me. I don't know about your area but it's easier to move from the grammar to the comp if things don't work out - places at grammars don't come up.

Good luck - my much older and wiser sister said I won't know till they're 25 if I made the right decision!

Absolutely zanzibarmum

It's simple really... public schools are really private schools; Grammar schools are state schools but not if it's Manchester Grammar School then it is private or independent. The schools for the public are state schools although Grammar schools are state schools too though selective through tests which in practice means selective by the amount of tutoring your can cram your child through - and therefore not available on equal terms to the public. Public schools were founded to educate the poor and now they do very little of that; public schools are also often selective by academic ability and socially though ethnically they can be more mixed albeit of socially advantage children or bright children who the bursaries that are now growing. Voluntary aided schools with a religious character are attacked as "faith schools" whereas other voluntary aided schools are ok particularly if your child goes there. How can you not undertand it?

Just another point, against popular misconceptions, I actually think the GS my DCs went/go to is LESS pressured than the local high achieving comp where some of the children are desperate to stay/get in the top sets. That pressure is actually removed at the GS as they are all much of a muchness. Although you will get the odd ones who desparately want to be 'top of the class' all the time.

But agree with MrsBartlet, it does depend on the child and how self confident they are in their abilities.