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Original poster

Oxbridge advice please

55 replies

faustina · 05/04/2009 06:36

could do with some help - ds currently in year 12 and wants to go to Oxbridge. there's a small group of friends who plan same but to date the only support they've been given was in year 11 when a girl who'd received an offer gave them a little talk one lunchtime. Absolutely nothing else. Help was promised in september, then after Christmas, then after easter - now changed to "in September". Is this normal?
I've read about oxbridge entrance courses that you can do privately - has anyone gone down this route? I haven't heard many good things about them - eg they aren't that useful
ds applied for the eton summer school but received total non-reference from head of 6th form. He said "what do you want me to put" and of course ds has no idea how to write a ref so said" well could you put that I can't study these subjects at school (ppe) and so I would really like to do them"". And that's exactly what he did put - nothing else. It wouldn't have occurred to ds that something about his abilities and personal qualities is what's needed in a ref.. No idea how they choose people for summer school but sure this can't have helped.

Academically ds more than capable, but no-one receiving any real encouragement from school. am not pushing oxbridge but feel if he does want to go he will need to extra help and time seems to be running out for this. any ideas? He has already worked his way through the reading list the girl gave them. There's almost nothing extra curricular offered at his school academically - he did debating society and loved it but that ended in january when they went out of the mace competition, and he's done a shakespeare production and loved that too.
he's doing history, maths, chemistry and religious philosphy and ethics as levels and predicted as, he got 10 a* 1 a and 1 b for gcses
he is at a state school but we are not in a category that can apply for any of the schemes for would-be students who are disadvantaged in any way - eg, sutton, aim higher etc etc

OP posts:
Chaotica · 05/04/2009 17:05

I know a lot about this but don't know what I can add to the others.

PPE is very competitive and standards are high. Chances of being passed around are rather less than most subjects (unless a college has a very dud year and needs extras, but that is rare). A good 'score' is needed in all three subjects at interview as people are often rejected as being unsuitable on a 3rd of the course (it is very hard to agree upon whom to admit for ppe).

Your DS should read up on colleges. Some want more and better state school applicants (St Peter's springs to mind here). If he goes to open days, he should try to engage with the subject tutor, not just listen to them. As well going to open days, it might be a good idea to phone the admissions tutor at a college and say how little help he's getting (and ask for advice) - they might be willing for him to have a personalised day there or for him to be included on access days.

BTW I feel for your DS. It's quite a common problem and a lot of good potential students don't get in.

(Coaching does not work though, especially in philosophy.)

Original poster
faustina · 05/04/2009 16:47

Boeuffinmum and bagsforlife thank you for helpful info. Don't think ds interested in oxbridge or bust type strategy - does that really happen? Isn't it kind of obvious when people apply for courses that they've chosen on that basis?

also he was really keen on the idea of one of the older central colleges. Have been looking through alternative cambridge thing just now as part of ironing avoidance and there are several which seem to stress his main non-academic interests - art, drama, and music

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BoeuffinMum · 05/04/2009 15:55

If you meet the entry requirements and perform to a certain standard at interview, the theory is you get pooled and then another college will most likely offer you a place. That's the theory, anyway. Basically the other colleges have a look at your paperwork and cherry pick the best. Sometimes we tip other colleges off if there is someone in the pool we thing they would be particularly interested in for some reason.

However if you apply to an unfashionable (ie modern) college for an unfashionable subject (eg Classics), statistically your chances of a place are improved. The stats are on the Cambridge website somewhere, so you can play a highly strategic numbers game if you prefer.

bagsforlife · 05/04/2009 14:58

Yes, you can make an 'open' application certainly to Cambridge, not specifying a college.

Yes, it is also true, you can be 'pooled' which means the college originally applied to may have not offered a place but the application is passed on to other colleges. This doesn't necessarily mean you will definitely get a place though(I think, ready to be corrected though). I have a feeling one of my DCs contemporaries was 'pooled' and then didn't get a place, but I could be wrong.

Our oldest went to look around universities by herself (we didn't know any different!) but our second wanted us to go to with him, so we did. I don't think it 'matters' either way, if they are confident enough to go on trains and public transport that's all good really.

Original poster
faustina · 05/04/2009 14:34

oh god yes - this whole thing about choosing colleges. At cambridge ds was told not to worry because if you don't care, you go as an open applicant, and if you name a college and they don't want you, but they think someone else might,you get passed around? Is this broadly true?

I'll have a look at when the st Andrews open day is, have also heard good things about it (inwardly shuddering at distance from suffolk and kissing goodbye to last hope of possible week away on own this summer)

By the way - is it completely cruel of me to prefer ds to go to these things, if possible, with two friends also interested in the same course? When I was doing all this kind of thing everyone went on their own - it would have been bizzarre to take your mother along. I sent my eldest on his own once, and then went with him to interviews because he said he had been the only one on his own.

the cambridge visit last week was just the three boys and I thought it was quite nice them learning how to do trains, buses, maps etc, plus being forced to not rely on social skills of parent but still having two friends to give confidence and discuss things with.

for the more official open days in july would it be weird if they went off again (assuming all still interested) in a group? (nothing to do with wanting to go away myself - I just think they got more out of the visit last week without their parents)

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LauriefairycakeeatsCupid · 05/04/2009 11:41

also have a look at St Andrews - my dh turned down PPE at Oxford to go there to do Philosophy and International Relations - you do a 4 year course and get an MA at the end. He's not here at the moment (at a cup final) for me to ask him more but I know he said that the course was much better regarded

BoeuffinMum · 05/04/2009 11:37

Sorry - meant to say first year (Pt I). Also applying to a slightly less fashionable college improves your chances statistically.

BoeuffinMum · 05/04/2009 11:36

You only have to do Sociology in the first years of SPS. Plus they are changing the course a bit anyway (can't remembed new acronym at the moment). But it is madly competitive, just like PPE, so just Philosophy on its own might be more sensible than you think as an application strategy.

bagsforlife · 05/04/2009 11:19

It sounds as though the school is in a bit of a muddle. Maybe they will get their act together in September and start going full steam ahead into university applications. Your son sounds as though he is perfectly capable of applying without any help at all!

As long as the school does it's stuff when it's meant to, ie by the deadlines, he can look into everything else himself and get his Personal Statement perfected over the summer holidays. That is the most important part and with his interests in debating etc, he sounds like the perfect candidate.
Looking into everything himself, rather than the school doing everything for him, could be seen as 'initiative' and earn him a few more brownie points, as it were (trying to look on positive side....).

Original poster
faustina · 05/04/2009 11:05

bagsforlife it's a catholic comprehensive - they do well in the tables - I think it's more the top end of things they have a problem with - also bottom end, but that's another story - eldest ds had profound dyslexia which was only diagnosed at 18

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Original poster
faustina · 05/04/2009 10:45

he was given the cambridge alternative one last week, will see if there's an oxford one - thank you bellabelly : )

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bellabelly · 05/04/2009 10:41

Oh ok - the somerville one is probably just a general one then (I just looked at that one cos it's my old college). Do they still do the alternative prospectus? That was quite helpful for getting the students' point of view about colleges and courses.

bellabelly · 05/04/2009 10:39

EG open days at somerville, oxford 1&2 July

Original poster
faustina · 05/04/2009 10:39

bellabelly - they don't do one for ppe - I looked. You just book for an individual college - I will get him to ask about ppe when we book the college day but it's not until july and it would be useful if he could have some more of an idea before this time

OP posts:
bellabelly · 05/04/2009 10:33

At Oxford, I'm sure there used to be Subject based open days/ afternoons organised by the individual colleges in the spring/summer before you applied (ie from now on if he's in Y12). Might be worth contacting a few of the individual colleges? If no open days, then at least they could send some materials, eg reading lists, prospectus etc. Lots of colleges would be happy to arrange individual visits too, I'd have thought, eg, just to look around the grounds and get a "feel" of the place.

Original poster
faustina · 05/04/2009 10:27

bags for life - yes he does realise it has to be one or the other - he prefers cambridge as a place, but didn't like the contents of the SPS - too much sociology (I think that's what he said)

OP posts:
Original poster
faustina · 05/04/2009 10:24

oh how kind you all are to help - thank you so much. The whole point of the eton summer school was that they did a taster for politics and economics. i have searched and searched and as yet not found any other similar that we qualified for. there's alot for students who come from a disadvantaged background, or low income families, or have parents who didn't go on to higher education but none for us.

there were some challenge days for G&T year 12s at cambridge earlier in the year. When I saw the head of g&t at his school last year (year 11) he promised he'd be happy to write a ref. for my son for any activity like this - it was one of the reasons we decided to keep him at the school rather than switch to sixth form college, or a selective school. there is a small group of bright boys at school who all wanted to do this kind of stuff - anyway come last september I spoke to him, gave him the dates, the web links, the names of the boys who wanted to go, even promised one of the mothers with the right clearance if they needed a chaperone. By end of october I saw the days were marked fully booked and went to the parents evening and asked what had happened - why they hadn't applied (you have to get the school to apply - you can't go individually) - and he said another teacher was now head of g&T and he'd passed the details on but couldn't say why nothing had been done. They also did a chemistry masterclass which I got to find out about two weeks after the closing date, and they said at the school that they hadn't been told about it until too late also.

the only thing we could apply for without the school's reference was the cambridge student union open day which three of them went to last week. There are official open days at cambridge and oxford in july which they'll be going to also. (not with the school)

the eton summer school reference fiasco was the last straw for me - how can I be confident that they're going to write a good (and accurate) ucas reference after that? Feel that each time I ask anything it is adversely affecting ds's chances and that I am marked down as pushy mother from hell

he adores arguing, is champion school arguer. won prize from lovely re teacher on trip to rome for bludgeoning a priest into admitting maybe contraception wasn't such a bad thing after all. He devours philosophy books - has read entire list they gave the girl who went last year, and whatever else he can find in my bookshelves and in the bookshop he works in on saturdays

the trouble is, I'm not sure he feels the same about the p and the e - I think he possibly thinks this would be a more "useful" degree than straight philosophy, and of course that's totally the wrong reason to choose a subject (especially when it's such an oversubscribed one)

I've been sending him to a lovely tutor for two years for maths and chemistry - not to get better grades, but to go beyond the curriculum and she's been brilliant with him.

I just wish there was something similar for economics and politics - even if it would just help him to decide whether he REALLY wants to study these subjects. I think he is doing fine with self-motivation for philosophy.

I understand about the crammers and don't really think they'd be that useful. am ok about helping with ucas personal statement, have done one with eldest ds already. Know how it has to be original and come straight from him (not me or web)

I am doing my best to encourage, but feel there's no support from the school at all. Even looked at changing schools after the eton thing but of course it's too late now.

there is a small group of likeminded boys but not wanting to be sexist or anything, they are boys - the girls cover their walls with revision notes and have tidy desks and worry alot - my ds reads marx and descartes voraciously half the night, makes stop motion films with little plasticine men and then goes in the next morning and gets 100% for whatever test it is. His progress reports go: predicted grade: A on target: yes - for all his subjects - that's lovely of course, but not exactly challenging him on to greater things

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bagsforlife · 05/04/2009 10:02

The deadline for applications to Oxbridge through UCAS is usually around 15 October. The deadline for applications to other universities is Jan 15th so he does need to be ready with his application by October.

I think you ought to contact the Head at the school and make sure they realise about the deadlines so that his academic reference can be written by a member of staff in time. I would have thought they would be glad students are aiming high and be as supportive as possible. What sort of school is it? Do they generally send students to university?

Look on all the individual websites of the colleges at Oxford/Cambridge. There is a wealth of information on there about the application process.

The UCAS website is also very informative, it has a section on who should write the academic reference, personal statements etc.

This is really stating the obvious, but as your school seems to be so unhelpful, your son does realise he can only apply to Oxford OR Cambridge and not both?

BoeuffinMum · 05/04/2009 08:11

Lazy bastards. But I confess I did used to hear some related comments in the SCR in days of yore. However I am not sure people would be so open now about their prejudices if they thought like that. It's very off message.

I don't think it wouldn't happen on my patch now, not least because we're mainly a bunch of lefties. Personally I shuffle through the applications and read the Access ones first, because I was a comprehensive school teacher for years and have a good track record in spotting future talent that way. At the end of the day, though, people have to be able to survive small group teaching and rigorous academic debate, plus cope with a monster workload. That's what we're after.

justaboutback · 05/04/2009 08:02

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BoeuffinMum · 05/04/2009 08:01

Yes but it's getting less and less IMO. really the standard is going up and I honestly believe it's got a lot fairer of late.

justaboutback · 05/04/2009 07:59

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BoeuffinMum · 05/04/2009 07:57

We can spot those who have been coached a mile off as they seem rather dull.

BoeuffinMum · 05/04/2009 07:55

PS It has all changed massively in the last five years and all the interviewers are supposed to have had training as well, to make it as consistent across the colleges as possible, and to reduce quirkiness.

justaboutback · 05/04/2009 07:55

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