I've just had a phone call from the mum of one of dd's friends saying that dd is bullying her daughter.

oooh, can I have your autograph?

I think you're handling this really well.

Good luck for Tuesday.

here you are in the Times. Fame at last, eh?

If dd is excluding this girl from conversations and encouraging or influencing others to do the same then that is bullying. If this girl just cannot hold her own in conversations then that has more to do with your dd being the confident one and the other girl lacking in confidence or social skills and isn't bullying. Having had an older brother who was bullied very badly at grammar school I would not expect the girls to sort it out amongst themselves if it really is bullying.

Hey, seeker have you seen yourself in print in today's Times? Recognised a few other names as well and I've only been contributing on here for less than a week!

I would just tell DD to be more friendly with this girl - to include her in the conversation etc.

People are very quick to throw the bullying word around - but sustained excluding is bullying. It does seem odd that this other girl can't grin and bear the journey, and then be among her own friends when she gets to school. It is very normal on public transport for school groups to stick together and not mix. It's also fairly normal Year 8 behaviour to change the intensity of friendships, but it is worrying if it goes on for a long period of time.

I imagine that your DD is being insensitive rather than going out of her make to make this girl's life miserable. I would be fairly honest with her ("I was chatting with Mrs X the other day, and she said that her dd didn't enjoy the bus journey. She felt that everyone else had friends and she was billy-no-mates, etc etc. Please could you make an effort to include her in your chats, blah blah blah"). If your DD is bullying, she will react by justifying it or getting embarrassed about it; if she is simply insenstive, she will do as you suggest.

Don't involve the school - it's nothing to d with them.

We helped our year seven girls write contracts last term. They all agreed that leaving someone out could be hurtful, pointedly looking at someone and then giggling might be hurtful, turning their back and then having a shouty conversation when someone tried to talk to them might be hurtful too.

They agreed that if they noticed anyone in the group doing this then they would be able to say so without being ostracised. What had been happening was a few noisy rambunctious types were overwhelming the others who knew better really. This left a few quieter types isolated, they would hold it together until hometime and then lose it to their mums.

It's more difficult as this other girl goes to a different school but it sounds like your daughter has a good head on her shoulders. If she has a strong streak of empathy, maybe she can take the lead in making sure no-one starts or ends the day feeling left out on the bus. There's nothing like a challenge.

I had something VERY similar a few months ago seeker- and it is a real tricky one. FWIW I just did a lot of talking with her, about other people's feelings etc (and she is normally VERY sensitive to others, a real people-pleaser!), and used tv situations like Mean Girls, America's Next Top Model etc etc to ask her how certain situations might make people feel etc.

I topped it up with a bit of "Do you really want any sniff of you ever being less than pleasent and polite to go on your school record permanently for every college you apply to to read?" yada yada, and said that I wanted to hear things had really improved from the girl's mother, quicksmart...Oh, and if any of her mates were being mean, she needed to tell them they were getting her into trouble. I also confiscated the mobile and banned MSN for a while, to cut down any bitching opportunities.

Touch wood, things are a LOT better...

I sit next to somebody at work whose dd calls her 2 times every day. She is very protective over her, but also very outspoken about everybody else. this means that things that you or I might let go in a day she will be in there and meddling. Her dd only has to mention something and she jumps on it and wants to make something out of it when it is usually just girls being girls. My dd came home tonight and burst into tears because she felt she had been left out of her friends, but I just told her that it is the end of term and that everything seems worse when you are tired and that she will be ok. Which quite frankly she was once she had had a cry and a hug.

Sleepyeyes is right Seeker. It sounds like your dd has outgrown the friendship to some extent. I can just picture it, girl unhappy and moaning she's left out, and your dd is probably slightly annoyed by her, so leaves her out without even meaning to. I would just remind dd to be kind to her but ultimately I don't think it's yours or dd's problem.
Are there no girls from her school on the bus? Perhaps her mother should engineer some journeys where she travels with someone she's actually at school with.
Shame, but part of growing up imo.

it might be a relative thing too - so a bit of ignoring of a 'clingon' to your daughter, might be all out OMG they hate me - for the other girl - its about perception.

i would like to commend you on your even handedness and think that you will handle it all beautifully

Some kids find the jump HARD,is what I measnt to say.

I would ask her if the girl is ever included in their conversation?
If the asnwer is seldom or never then maybe point out how this makes the girl feel even if it's not intentional.
At the same time your daughter shouldn't feel she HAS to be friends with this girl as long a she is polite and friendly.
I would call the other mother and tell her your daughters side and ask if maybe her daughter is finding the social side of school difficult?
Some kids find the jump to senior primary/beginning high school, it's possible the girl generally having trouble fitting in and mixing, moving on and making other friends.
This is ultimatly may be a bigger problem than just the school bus and therefore is the girl and her mother issue to deal with, not you and your daughter.

Maybe a quiet word to DD along the lines of "X is clearly quite unhappy at the moment, it would be kind of you to make a special effort to include her in your next conversation. Sometimes people can be shy and might feel that they are being left out becuase they aren't confident enough to jump into a conversation even though you aren't deliberately excluding her"?

Actually NC you are almost pot on with my post!

Sleepyeyes, I know it's very upsetting but I am adamant that it isn't necessarily bullying. Clearly Seeker needs to get more facts. What you say happened to your sister also happened to my own 13 year old son a few months back. He went from being an extremely popular boy, definitely one of the 'in-crowd' to being ostracised by a whole big group of his mates, some of whom were winding him up, relentlessly teasing him and trying to goad him into a fight, for no real reason we could get to the bottom of. There was a vey unpleasant atmosphere for about a month, and I couldn't actually get him to go to school at all for a week - he just laid in bed crying his heart out, completely confused by it all. I got my knickers in a twist about it and went to the school, (who were fabulous I must say)and the two ringleaders were hauled over the coals, and the nastiness stopped. Lo and behold, boys being boys and generally not holding grudges the way girls do, a few months later they are all best friends again! Absolutely infuriating.

All I'm saying is there is a fine line between being excluded from things because people don't like you much (and let's be honest we all do it in one form or another - we just have the good sense to be discreet about it) and actually seeking someone out for spiteful treatment to get your power kicks. Not wanting to include someone in your social group is heartbreaking for the child involved but it is not in itself bullying. Of course, systematic pointing, sniggering, intimidating, belittling and whispering IS bullying. But it's important to distinguish the two.

I'm deliberately not reading any posts on this before I answer (nc prepares for flaming )......Ive had lots shitloads of experience with bullies and what you do have to look t clearly is the line between general playground nastiness which we all have to suffer in all areas of life cos we dont live in a 'happy bubble'and what general bullying is - tbh the situation you describe isnt imvho bullying - its perhaps being a little unpleasant and as a mum its not how you would encourge your dc to behave but you nor i know the full situation.

I would speak to your dd alone and ask in generl how the friendship is going then dependant upon her response explain what the other mum has told you give her chance to explain herself and take into account her valid feelings then its upto her shes almost a teen and she needs to either a/ speak with her friend and work things through or b /agree she has outgrown this friendship and move along not by being nasty to this other girl but by generating space between them.

Girls are very dramatic and i think this coud well boil down to your dd having found her feet and settled into secondary school before the other girl there is a huge range of differences of maturity of girls around 12 -13 and you know your dd and her capabilities and i strongly suspect that you like others wouldnt entertin a dd who was becoming a bully.

Hope this is all soon resolved.

(now gonna read other peoples answers and hope im not too out of synch .....)

Seeker - just read this with interest. Same thing happened to me yesterday. Had a phone call from a mum saying my ds in Y6 has been ignoring one of his friends and this boy is crying when he gets home, and please could I 'sort it out'.

Was gobsmacked as teachers say similar thing to what your daughter's teachers said.

Told the mum I would speak to ds and let her know his side of it...

Not sure how to handle iot so this thread is v helpful.

Hope it all gets resolved and things calm down over half term!!

Seeker well done on taking this seriously, my sister had this type of bullying happen to her for about a year it total destroyed her confidence and she ended up leaving school early because of it.
People who dont think it bullying how would you feel if everyday a girl you had previously been on good terms with suddenly start ignoring you, giggle and give you sly looks, looking you up and down, gossip about you, making sure no one else speaks to you becuase your not part of the in group. It can totally destroy a girls confidence at such a vunerable age.

Not to say seekers daughter as done any of those things, her version could be very different.

Well said tigermoth. And yes seeker, I agree it costs nothing to just be polite and civil to be people you don't much care for. There's no excuse for being rude and nasty. That's why it's so important that you talk to her to find out exactly what she's been doing. Even then though it will be hard to know who to really believe. (as anyone who witnessed the heartbreaking group rejection of a dear little boy for apparently 'threatening' one of his housemates with a dinner knife in 'Boys and Girls Alone' this week! The wronged boy was fantasising wildly about happened but he truly believed his own version and the others all got caught up in the drama of it all.A eal eye opener. Children don't always mean to lie, they sometimes just have an unusual slant on the truth!!!) Is it possible that your DD is showing off a bit to impress older or cooler children and she sees this girl as a bit of an embarrassing hanger-on? Is she generally a very dominant and scathing personality? Children like that need to be encouraged to tone down their hard edges a little for the sake of other more delicate souls.