Can someone talk to me about grammar schools please?

km1 i feel for you

our boys school operates like that for out of catchment - so you could be 1 metre out of catchment or 15 miles and makes no odds

very unfair - they just take the top scores regardless

I take your point, KM1. I guess what I am trying to say is - as a parent you know what your child can do and how much extra work they will do. Advice to OP. Contact grammar school direct. Find out what type of paper they do (standard or multiple choice),which ones they do and find out what their particular admissions criteria are. They might tell you where the cut off points in terms of marks are for previous years. Our DSs school are also very keen to point out that 'full marks' does not mean 100 per cent correct as the score is standardised.
HTH

Ria - where we live there are no catchment areas. Anyone can apply no matter how far away they live and they only thing that matters in terms of getting a place is where you come in the ranking. I guess it is the same pressure faced by the people in your area who live out of catchment. It is a bit annoying for us as we live closer to the grammar school than out catchment comprehensive but that counts for nothing when you apply!

No I'm in Trafford.

is it not the same one cornsilk?

Okay - just wondering as I'm in a grammar school LEA as well.

North Yorkshire

Ria which LEA are you in?

km1 we live in the north and it is different when you live out of catchment to 'in'

the pressure is huge

most children are tutored out of area dont know about 'in'

bagsforlife

your ds1 sounds like dd

i am slightly embarrassed that my bright but idle daughter fails to achieve potential by hovering somewhere about the middle of the school....BUT..she is happy and will achieve great results because its a fab school

I think we are comparing apples and oranges here. The grammar school system is different all over the country (where it still exists that is). I believe that there are a lot more grammars in Kent than there are here in Essex (where the OP lives). I may be wrong but I thought that in Kent the grammars took about 25% of children whereas in Essex they only take 5% therefore making the competition for places much more difficult. I think there must be plenty of children in Essex who don't get into the grammars who would cope perfectly well there but there are not enough places and that is why many parents here feel the need to tutor their children to give them the best possible chance of getting in.

'Tutoring' is a scary word!! Surely what most do is pay someone else to 'brush up' skills the children already have and familiarise them with papers no more than once a week, 6 months to a year before to prevent entire family arguments of 'I don't want to/not yet/after this TV programme' variety. That's what we did for our 3 DC who are all at grammars that rank order the children. By the way, they have to survive when they get there and imo if they need loads of extra help they won't manage. At my DDs school there is a recognised 'falling off' in Year 8 by girls who have been overtutored. In our area(Kent), you cannot 'learn' the papers as they are done at speed.To a degree you either can or can't and you can usually tell by Year 4 those who will!. I certainly would NOT WANT to put my children into a grammar unless they could get in easily.
Good luck!

Yes, I agree with you Ria!

Once they get there it is very much sink or swim if they want to get the string of As.

My DS1 managed to, ahem, 'under achieve' by being v lazy and the teachers weren't particularly interested in lazy boys like him.( But he still got to Russell Group university.)

However, he really, really loved the school and had a fab time. He didn't see it as not keeping up, he didn't feel inferior to those that worked hard.

So I actually send my DS2 there not
particularly for the academic side but because I knew he would be happy (which he is), it is a smaller school than the comprehensive and there's no bullying. I really am in a minority here but having hated school myself, my DCs happiness is more important that their academic results to a certain extent.

bfl i disagree

tutoring can make a huge amount of difference

the problem lies - and this has been said ad infinitum - in when the over tutored child gets there

dd was at a primary school that ranked 6th in the country when she was year 6

Her teacher sang her praises day and night ' so bright - level six entention papers' etc etc

she got into the 'much sought after grammar school' and had to quickly re adjust to being ' one of a hundred'

These schools expect a LOT from their pupils. A lot of them adopt a 'university' or 'pupil led' approach to learning . It; s sink or swim and ime - the school dont care . There are another 20 kids on the waiting list eager to take the place of those who dont like the pressure

I agree with bfl re. home pactise - make sure they know to quickly go back over answers they've left out at the end - don't leave any questions out.
But I think what really makes or breaks is vocab - if you can make sure your child reads a lot, maybe actively learning a few new words each week, that will be a big advantage.
And, as others have said, if you know your child is bright enough and would benefit from this sort of environment, don't hesitate to do what you can to help him/ her.

Yes, I agree re. overdoing the tutoring (3 DCs at/were at grammar school). Mine weren't tutored but it is a good idea to familiarise them with the papers and teach them some 'tricks', like writing quickly (!), working out some of the answers on a grid, just so they don't waste time labouring over one question and not finish the paper, that sort of thing. You need to be pretty speedy to finish the papers, so doing some timed practice is a good idea too.

I know children who have been professionally tutored for a year or so who haven't passed.

I'm afraid it is the sort of test that either you can do or can't to a certain extent and no amount of tutoring is going to help that.

All this talk of tutoring just panics more parents into doing it. I really do think practising a bit at home to make sure your DC knows what they are doing should suffice.

My dd had over a year of tutoring as we wanted to give her the best chance of getting into the school which we felt to be the best suited to her needs. She gained a place at a highly selective grammar and is not struggling in the slightest. In her best subjects she is near the top of the class and in her weakest subjects she is in the middle. We would not have tutored her to "bring her up" to the right level as the last thing I would have wanted is for her to be unhappy at school.

I hope you are right Ria - we have stopped coaching DS1, who is bright, but pig headed and lazy.

We live very close to one of the best grammar schools in the country, but they dont' have any sort of cathcment area atm (that may change this year) and so the competion is very stiff and children travel from very far and wide to attend.

The thing that worries me is that becuase he is bright, if he doesn't pass he will be bored in the local secondary modern (which is just around the corner form us, small, and lovely) so we will have to stick him on a bus to send him to a comp in the next town.

I know lots of people who start coching from YY3 - the tutor DS was going to had a 95% pass rate with DC's who sarted in Y3.

My friend didn't coachj her DD atall, and she just scraped in, but now she is at the grammer school she is doing way better than those who were coached and scored better than her in the 11+ test, so obviously coaching does work.

I think as long as they understand how to answer the questions they will be fine if they are bright - there is a nack to make working out some of the answers easier, I think.

i went to grammar school, i would just say that it is a good idea to look at question types to prepare but if a child needs an hour a week tutoring for a year to pass the test then they may struggle all the way through and may need tutoring to get by all the way through.

just read more of the thread

hope you are not all seting yourselves up for fall

an hour or two hours a week

unneccessary imo - too much hardship for the child

Which area are you in Ria?

i wen in to this grammar school thing quite blind really

I went to the school open day - was told what the tests were

did some with ds ( state educated and out-of catchment) he took the tests which was stressful with ds1 as it spanned 2 weeks - he passed and went

I have done the same with two others since

Yes a lot of coaching goes on but a bright child can 'learn' how to pass those papers imo

If the child neeeds a great deal of coaching it should not go

There is so much hype about these exams ( on here included) - bright kids get in

We tutored dd for the 11+ as we did not want her to be at a disadvantage compared to the privately educated children also doing the exam. In this area the private schools coach their pupils intensively to pass the 11+.

As dd is very bright we felt that the grammar school was the best place for her and didn't want to see her miss out on a place due to lack of preparation for the exam. We did not tutor her to bring her up to a suitable level to go to the school but to familiarise her with Verbal Reasoning which was not covered in her state primary.

The competition for places is fierce and unless a child is extraordinarily bright, looking at a few papers with them would not be sufficient preparation.

Now that dd is at grammar school, 40% of the girls in her class went to private school. They will all have done a lot more than just looked at a few practise papers.

I like teaching my children stuff though. The national curriculum is quite narrow and my son is always hungry for more maths, ciphers and so on. There are loads of interesting cultures and parts of history that schools don't have time for, and just everyday things like species of trees and so on. What goes on in school is just a little bit of a child's education.

I am not sure how doing that is really any different from tutoring for the 11 plus. I did maths with ds before the 11 plus and after the 11 plus, and will continue for as long as he enjoys it. You don't have to learn everything at school.

Know where your at Q, BUT the problem is IF the DC FAILS the hallowed grammar school entrance, in SOME areas, despite the scurrilous use of the word 'comprehensive' the alternative SECONDARY MODERN can be dire because they've lost the Nice Middle Class Influence of those (academically) creamed off to grammar, both DCs and pushy parents.

I can SO see why parents DO do this tutoring thing. What we NEED is a schooling system where that's not an option. The academically gifted should get lessons tailored appropriately, the vocationally able should get lessons tailored appropriately.

Stick 'em in the SAME school to get away from this awful Entitlement thing we're seeing and educate them ALL appropriately!