Decision time - state grammar school or quasi-selective independent school

My sons' independent school has 100% polyester blazers and you can buy school jumpers, shirts and trews from anywhere you like. I actually think the poncyness of the uniform is often inversely proportionate to the quality of the school.

Difficult to prove that uniform produces better results because it's going to be so hard to isolate this factor in any trial.

Certainly hasn't worked round our way. Out of the three local state secondaries, the one with the casual uniform (sweatshirt and no tie) has by far the best results and the best behaviour- and no scruffy-looking ties at half mast! The one with the strict uniform has had riots and a large proportion of the staff has resigned over the last term. And friends with kids at the school tell me they're not learning anything.

Gawd, state school uniforms can be absolute dire. Black crimplene blazers and low waisted trousers. Ghastly.

Gimme a proper, strict, uniform any day.

Uniforms at both our schools are very practical, btw.

I'm with seeker on the uniform issue - comfy clothes just look nicer to me. However, I think research (probably flawed) has shown that smart uncomfortable uniforms produce better results.

sorry typo: 'superior activities of the independent school', clearly. And I don't think that was freudian either, just that I was reading somebody else's post about the grammar just before typing typing.

Had the same decision last year, already had dd1 at the school (from state) and looking for dd2 (had moved from state to prep in y4 due to abysmal pastoral care at school rated as 'outstanding'). Had places at local (ish) grammar (top 20), & a number of indies. She picked the indi that her sister is at & we were happy with that as for us the level of pastoral care was the biggest issue (based on past experience) and so that is what we looked for.

Very happy so far but will never know whether it is worth the money as we will never know whether she would have thrived at the Grammar, just wasn't a risk we were prepared to take.

seeker i beg to differ

i would love a boater ...plaits on head make me weak at the knees

knee socks and shorts

From what you're saying it does seem to be a case of weighing the superior after-school activities of the grammar against your fears of not being able to keep up with the fees. If you can put money aside, then that may well help to give you a handle on the situation.

I think the general happiness of a child is very important to their wellbeing and willingness to learn. When we chose secondary schools for ds there was a more academic option with better results and a more musical/arty one (still with quite good results). We chose the later (even though I was far less sure of his musical leanings than his academic ones) and he's really thriving there, doing loads of music that would definitely not have been possible elsewhere and has a great attitude to learning too. Music does it for him more than sport (his sport is one that is usually done outside school in any case), but I think it's the same principle. Although what you said about the inflexibilty did ring a few alarm bells, (I've been very impressed lately with ds's school's flexibility in academic approach), overall from what you've said I'd err towards the sporty school.

I'm just teasing you.
But you have to admit - "my dd is a talented at sports and the school offers excellence in that area" does play better than "yikes at the scuffed shoes".

I know you want to do the best for your children. I do. I'm not doubting your motives at all.

Honestly, I think she'll get top grades in either school. She sounds like the kind of girl who would manage that even in the school where I teach. So your decisions need to be based not on that, but on the other stuff. And I think your point earlier about how she would get those top grades is an interesting one. I wonder if you could see some actual lessons...

Interesting - one of the things that puts me off private education is the super-smart sometimes (I know not always!) uber-poncy uniforms! Mydd wears an open necked shirt, a V necked jumper and trousers. Smartish, comfortable, easy to wash and practical. Not a boater, winged collar or blazer in sight!

I agree. People tend to get far too hung up about these things. My ds made the transition from chorister to state school student (his choice) with ease. He moved across into top sets; academically there's very little difference, and socially, ds prefers the greater diversity. What suited him at 7 didn't suit him at 14. We worry about all this far more than our kids do!!

And to be brutally honest, you never know if they'll turn around in 10 or 20 years time and berate you for it all anyway! I've come across people who went to state schools who feel that they could have achieved more if their parents had sent them to private, and I've come across privately educated people who lack confidence their whole life through because they feel they've only got where they are in life by virtue of their parents' paying and not through their own ability.

Don't beat yourself up - just get on with it.

I genuinely wasn't having a pop. You clearly both notice and care about these things. Your dd will probably go native in her school, whichever that is. It's not like you're considering a massive social change for her, by your own assessment of the schools. So I suspect she would be comfortable in both.

Apart from the sport - which is your real reasonable justification in mixed company

It's not a money thing though is it Litchick?

Plenty of us could pay; some of us do, some of us choose not to. Some of us, like me, have a foot in both camps because our child might have a need that makes us feel we need to pay.

I haven't got the impression at all that money is an issue - this is about an emotional wrangle about what is the best thing for each child. Whether they are going to be happy with the decision you make for them in the next few years and in thirty years time, when they'll be pondering where to send their own kids.

Here's the thing, Quatt.
You have the cash. It's not an issue.
If it were you'd be finding a gazillion reasons why you should take the grammar place and I'd be supporting that to the hilt.
I mean, why would anyone spend cash they haven't got unless the state alternative is dire - which does definitely happen but fortunately not to you.
In your circumstances you know full well that the indie will provide probably the same academics as the grammar and that you're paying for the extras...so what? The extras are worth having for your DD.
And if your worried about the crunchiness of said credit then put two years fees aside 9 if you haven't already). If you lost your job tomorrow can you seriously tell me you wouldn't replace it in 2 years?
I didn't think so.

I forgot about our guitar ensemble (oops)

Agree with thefallenmadonna - i personally would opt to save the money as i know DS would get a fantastic education at the GS school - i can't believe i am going to pay out so much for my son in a couple of years time that my pupils get for free. Its so unfair!

I agree FallenMadonna.

I get the feeling Quattro isn't going to take the plunge into state, and is really struggling with it all and wanting validation. If you want to pay 80k for the things the private will provide, then do it. And I'm not having a pop either - I have kids in both state and private.

IMO you weigh up the pros and cons as far as you can, look at your circumstances, whether you want to commit to long term fees or maybe top up with private tuition, and then just decide one way or the other.

One word of caution though... your children are still quite young. Mine are older, and those of us with teens know that their interests will change and develop, and just because your dd is sports mad now, she may get other interests, or at least not be wanting to be in all the sports teams by the time she's Year 10. My ds was a chorister at private school - he is obviously naturally very musical but once he'd left the choir his interests developed in other areas. He has no desire to pursue a career as a musician, and chose to move to a state school which he prefers. Just don't underestimate how your child may change.

But Cory, the trouble is when you've got a kid who loves to be part of all the teams - hockey, netball, cross country, tennis, gymnastics, athletics, lacrosse, basketball etc etc that you just can't fit it all in as part of an extra curricular thang, unless your school doesn't give any prep and you happen to live within five miles of all those clubs. And that's assuming that Mum can or even wants to spend each evening doing that. Not to mention the affect on the other kids.
Whereas some schools will offer that.
And if it's offered as part of the curriculum and you can afford it...well why not really?

Quattro - you want the independent surely? Because it seems to me you don't just want a good education - which I'm pretty sure an outstanding grammar school would provide in purely academic terms. You want the other stuff too. The 'badly dressed' comment - I mean, I'm not really sure what that means, but I'm pretty certain it's something the independent will care more about. Like you do. And your dd will end up similarly attired - you know it...

That sound like I'm having a bit of a pop, and I'm really not. If these things matter to you, and you can find the dosh, then go with where you feel more comfortable.

About the sports, it might also be worth thinking about what her particular sporting talent is and how easy it would be to meet that outside of school.

A friend of dd's is a very strong swimmer and already doing extremely well in competitions; yet her state school only offers swimming lessons for those pupils who cannot swim the width of the local pool. But then again, they are close to a pool with (I believe) very good coaches, so they can still provide what she needs for rather less than 80k.

Ds wants stage training, but I don't think we'll need to get him into the secondary which specializes in the performing art as we have a very good stage school across the road; they can probably do better for him.

But all these things- quality of coaching, travel distance etc would have to be factored in.

You're not saying that you agree with "damn" being a demerit-able word, are you?

BUt god she is ..year 6?

they are all keen then. Wait till Y9.