Decision time - state grammar school or quasi-selective independent school

P.S. And I agree it's a shame, bags, that ludicrous assumptions drive people to feeling they have to quote figures. The school where I teach (which actually isn't a hugely academic secondary) also has a handful of Oxbridge offers. And guess what? - they are incredibly bright children who would have got the offer from any type of school. There aren't as many as 27, because it's not a grammar school, it's a comp. Which is exactly what one would expect.
Why do people get so hung up on overall statistics? Isn't it your own children who are important to you? If any of my children have the ability and inclination to apply for Oxbridge, I'd be happier if they were one of a small handful of successful candidates from their school, than being an unsuccessful candidate in a school that gets 25 other kids in.

woohoo

Yes I agree bags. Xenia is clearly a reasonably bright person but she doesn't seem to understand the logic that juse because more pupils may get into Oxbridge from School A than School B, doesn't mean that a specific child (let's call her'Child X') is more likely to get in from School A. Because as has been pointed out countless times (including by Oxbridge admissions tutors) Child X will either have the ability and potential or not. There may well be a greater concentration of Oxbridge candidates in School A, for all sorts of reasons - just as there is a greater concentration in the top sets at high performing state schools than in lower ones! The mistake some fee payers make is to assume that paying will turn their child into something they aren't.

My DCs STATE grammar school has had 27 Oxbridge offers this year, more than any other school, state or independent in the county (thats COUNTY not country before anyone flys at me).

I am driven to boasting like this (NEVER normally do so, keep v quiet in public usually) by the ludicrous assumptions of some people on this site re. the private v state school debate.

There are undoubtedly huge advantages received by paying to go down the independent route, I am sure. But somehow being made 'more intelligent' isn't one of them.

My dcs school have excellent pastoral care
an inordinate range of extra curricular activitities

the relationship I have with them is great

Taking my daughter to my sons school she was greeted with members of staff commenting on how like her brother she is- with no need for introduction

The staff and children have great repartee and a truly close bond by sixth form

this is not because we pay for it

Sadly those with only experience of independent sector on this seem to be blind to the possibilities a good state school can provide

I don't understand why often there is an assumption that the child's school is its only experience. I don't chose to do my job because of the diversity of people I meet there, if that exists it is a bonus, but I get plenty of diversity outside work. In the same way a school is a child's 'job' but they meet and mix and interact with a variety of types of people outside in other ways.

For once I very slightly agree with Xenia... on one point:'purchaser who must be kept happy', this is the crux.

At a highly academic state grammar many ex-private sector children find it quite hard. They don't get all the 'extras' associated with the private school (for which you are paying)and therefore it is a lot more 'sink or swim'. And everyone is as bright as each other in the academic sense.

This is a misconception of state school parents - that prviate school paretns are buying exam results. Good results are great of course and some of us have reasonably bright children but not all in the private sector by any means. I like the broad education, the teaching beyond the curriculum, the extra curricular stuff, the relationships between chidlren and staff. It has never felt shallow to me but I think someone moving from private to state would find they are moving from purchaser who must be kept happy to take it or leave it you're lucky to have it for nothing. That is the difference between state provision and the free market.

TBTT - you make a very salient point about whether they will still be around. Even if they are, gvt interfence is unlikely to reduce - one of the reasons I am not holding my breath for the survival of the only two remaining grammar schools where I live.

Quattrocento - 2 main points I have

1. Independent schools are about far more than academic results as I'm sure you know. There will be so much opportunity for her to try things you never thought about, and maybe she excels at one of these. I disagree that they hothouse the kids academically. A good independent school is more about the all rounder. I think state grammars are more likely to push academically.

1. Can you be certain state grammars will still be around in 8 years time !!!!!

'cherished paying customer'

I prefer my relationship and moreover my childs relationship to be based on them and their worth - not cashflow

Your kids did not get in to Oxbridge so why the obsession?

You make it all sound so 'shallow' Xenia

I agree with Mrs G. Also if you went to a private school yourself and your children haev always gone there it's going to takea bit of getting used to that you're not a cherished paying customer and more get to Oxbridge from the private school so I can't see there's much of a contest.

thanks both of you

i meant none of it of course!

Ria - My DS wants to study medicine no matter what. He will most probably apply to Oxbridge unless he thinks it's waste of one of his four choices for whatever reason.
I think he is being very sensible about it all.

RiaParkinson I would have done medicine anywhere over something-not-medicine at Oxbridge. It sounds like your son wants to be a doctor and good luck to him. Clearly it's important to have a back up but if he thinks he can do it... let him try. For all us docs moan and groan about it I still love my job.

Violet did your name begin with an alpha?

Leeza I read your whole post out to dp - very interesting...

I am desperately trying to steer my ds away from medicine and toward material science or chemistry to improve his chances...he is having non of it

(When I say 'the private one', I mean the local prep school, about quarter of a mile from the state primary!)

QC - other parents' experiences are useful, but don't let yourself be swayed by anyone's views but your own and your daughter's!

Our neighbours are ecstatic about our local primary school, as are practically all the parents (and OFSTED) - it's one of the top state primaries in the country (whatever that means). However, it still wouldn't have been right for me/my DCs.

One parent with children at both schools says the state one is very good, but the private one is miles better. Ho hum.

Litchick- It sounds as though your own experience was of a real 'sink' school on a rough estate. Mine wasn't as extreme. I was entering secondary education at the phase when grammars were being phased out and comprehensives introduced - it was a sort of cross over period and a number of pupils were still being 'creamed off' by the 11 + so in that sense my 'comp' was probably generally lower ability rather than genuinely containing the whole spectrum. Having said that, for many of us it didn't hold us back at all. There was a 6th form, people did well and went to University. I guess it's all swings and roundabouts anyway. I probably had to more of a self starter and independent learner than some of my grammar school counterparts - but that's no bad thing. Sometimes you have to think longer term - jobs, and life in general, require a range of skills, not just exam passes!

I also think that one potential downside of private school, is that if it does leave you feeling very reliant on it as a 'comfort zone', how are you going to feel if you can't as an adult afford the same thing for your children..? I mean, if Quattro's dd does to private and then believes very firmly that it's a key to her own success, how is she going to feel if she can't afford the same for her own children? (Given that very many interesting and worthwhile careers don't necessarily pay that well? And who knows what's going to happen economically long term? - a lot of grandparents are seeing their portfolios plummet).
Of course, you can tie yourself up in knots thinking of all the 'What ifs?' It's probably best to put in all the input you can as a parent (probably more important than school anyway) and then keep a healthy distance, having faith in your child to achieve their potential.

All very interesting.

Violet - again I was interested to hear what you say ie that you have faith in the state system because of your own experiences.
DH and I, both state educated, have found our faith bruised shall we say.
Don't get me wrong we both 'succeeded' on an academic level but it often felt like a battle rather than a pleasure.
Although TBH, much of my ojection to the curent system is to do with the NC and SATS and the general lack of flexibility given to teachers and has little to do with my own pre-historic experiences.

Q have not read whole thread, but your OP seemed to indicate the only positive in the grammar was that it was free. If you can afford the fees, the indie sounds better for your DD.

Exactly MillyR.

People make the best choice for each child, within the limitations of their circumstances at that particular time. We all bring our own personal history to it too. I went to a (not very good) comp, DH went to a (very good) comp and we both went on to good Universities, got good degrees, good careers. That probably makes me feel more confident in the state system than if I'd only experienced private. I get the feeling Quattro is wavering, but her 'comfort zone' is private, and I'm guessing she went to either private or highly selective school herself. With her history, I might feel the same as her.

Any school is always going to involve some element of compromise, because there is no perfect school.

If I were to create my perfect school....

It would be big enough to offer a broad range of subjects, but small enough to provide superb pastoral care. Class sizes... tricky one this as different children suit different things.. probably between 15/20 depending on subject.Having said that, my ds was in a class of 12 which he found limiting, but loves his classes of 24. The school would be located in acres of beautiful grounds (Xenia will agree on at least one point!) within a city so that there would be plenty of vibrant cultural opportunities on the doorstep. Buildings... have to be the best bits of each of my dd and ds's schools.... dd's has some glorious buildings (mainly the Head's study and public areas.. there are some grottsville mobile classrooms out the back!) .... ds's has superb labs and other facilities but all encased in deadly dull 70's exterior.

As for that most important resource, the teachers... well, I would cherry pick 3 of my dd's teachers who I rate as exceptional, throw in a number of my ds's inspirational teachers and persuade a few of my excellent teacher friends to work there. Anyone mediocre, boring, unable to cope with a challenge or looking for an easy ride would be out. Oh and I'd have to resurrect my probably long-dead A level English teacher, who awakened my love of literature and inspired me to study English for a first and higher degree... so maybe there's a lot of truth in that saying, 'All it takes is one good teacher....'

Quattro

I got my ds's grammar results on the same day as you.

I will be sending my ds to the grammar because it will suit him as it is strong on maths and science, which are his areas. He sat a combined test for 2 state grammars and we put the one with the lower A level results down as out first choice because we wanted a science school and it has a reputation for excellent pastoral care.

As he has got in to a state school we will not be considering the single sex independent anymore, even though it is a much better school. The main reasons for this are distance and the massive financial pressure it would put us under.

When my daughter sits the tests, I think we are much more likely to pick the independent school, because it will suit her much better; she will benefit from the social element and the extra curricular activities.

If you can afford it then you should pick the school you think is best for your daughter. The independent vs. state is irrelevant; you are choosing between two individual schools, not 2 school sectors. I can't see in your case what is to be gained from the grammar place, other than money not spent.

I didn't say quatt was dead set against it. She might be wavering but I am mentioning very clear tones to posts about private and state.

And it must be quite nice to apply and to know that your child was able to go to both schools, so you chose on merits alone.