Secondary teachers - could you answer a discipline Q please?

WendyWeber · 2008-07-11T08:53:41+00:00

What sort of offence would get a Y10 boy suspended for 3 days in your school? And do previous offences make it more or less likely that a suspension will be the preferred punishment? TIA

roisin · 15/07/2008 15:28

WW - that sounds like a very positive meeting. Hope he settles down again for next year.

No, he won't be at my school. I don't think I could cope with that, even if it were a school I wanted him to go to, which it's not!

He's a bit wobbly/emotional about leaving primary, and so am I tbh (but trying not to show it). The secondary has a 210-students-per-year intake, so it will take a bit of getting used to.

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WendyWeber · 15/07/2008 10:23

Glad to hear DS1 got into the school you wanted btw, I missed that before - and esp that a group of his mates are going - I bet he'll do really well

(He won't be at your school, will he? Just realised I don't know if you work in your own town or the next one!)

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WendyWeber · 15/07/2008 10:20

aw, thanks, roisin!

It was OK actually - head is quite human & has a sense of humour which always helps; is perfectly well aware that members of staff are called names and stressed that they don't want to hear them. (Told that he should have waited until he got further away DS2 said "I was at the end of the corridor!" & head commented that sound carries in that corridor - ie he should have allowed for that!)

We both stressed to him that he needs to be always aware that anything he says or does at school may well be observed/overheard/reported.

The report from members of staff was glowing, which was nice - the actual offence sounds to come from a different boy - just (yet another) moment of madness really

I didn't put in janeite's suggestion in the end, not once the head had mentioned that the deputy may well be head of 6th form by the time DS2 gets there (the various deputy heads rotate responsibilities) - he's just got to a) not need to be hauled up in front of him again & b) think respectful thoughts in any future encounter.

That's if he gets there of course - any more offences highly likely to lead them to refuse to admit him (which would be both sad & frustrating because 6th form is 2 minutes away, nearest 6th form college 12 miles...)

I left him waiting outside deputy's office to make his sincere & heartfelt apologies. He has recently, unprompted, started shaking people's hands in formal situations so I'm wondering if he'll have managed that today &, if so, how deputy would take it

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roisin · 14/07/2008 21:04

Thinking of you tomorrow: hope it goes well.
Rx

roisin · 13/07/2008 12:09

Hiya! Yes ds1 was 11 on Friday
He's going to the (state) school in the next town with a group of his mates to escape the schools re-organisation/Academy nonsense which is going on here. We didn't think he'd get a place, so we're mightily relieved.

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WendyWeber · 12/07/2008 21:00

Thank you, roisin - I just told him what you said about practising the art of abject contrition & he says he'll try (I didn't tell him you said gorgeous though, it would go to his head! How are your gorgeous boys lately, did I see that DS1 is in Y6 now & about to go to secondary school????)

ihatebikerides, I'm stunned that a Y2 would dare speak to the head like that (but also strangely relieved that the term used was such a 7-year-old one )

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ihatebikerides · 12/07/2008 20:22

A y2 pupil was suspended (3 days) for calling the HT "pooface." Was in front of whole class, so no option but to boot him out. He has previous, however.

roisin · 12/07/2008 13:41

WW - I am sorry to hear about this about your gorgeous boy. My school has very different scales of punishment, but this is not necessarilyi a good thing. At our school you might get 3 days for stealing or being caught shoplifting (and truanting) in uniform. For swearing at a member of staff you would usually get 1 day.

But it does depend who students are rude to, and SMT have the authority to throw instant punishments to students (isolation or exclusion) in the heat of the moment, in the way that ordinary members of staff don't.

If a student has been badly behaved and is then spoken to some of them are very good at saying "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir" with a very sincere and apologetic tone of voice, facial expression and body language, which can actually be quite irritating at the time, especially as it 'gets them off the hook' in many ways. But others sit there pulling teenage faces and mutter under their breath as they go away, which is infuriating in a different way. This can result in a knee-jerk reaction from the staff concerned.

Please encourage him to practise the first art, rather than the second.

Blandmum · 12/07/2008 10:05

Not bad most of the time. Mn is a nice diversion

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WendyWeber · 12/07/2008 10:04

(Thanks for taking the time to answer btw - how are you & the children doing?)

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WendyWeber · 12/07/2008 10:00

No, it was not said to his face, was not intended to be heard - he said it to the other boy, as they walked away from deputy head's office (during lesson time so no other students around), but either too soon or a bit too loud.

I agree with all your points about the school, MB. It's just that previous deputy heads have been, although very strict, also very fair, & popular with the students...mind you he is quite new to the school (although not young) & the others have been there for years, I suppose that makes a difference.

DS2 is particularly miffed because until this he had managed to get through an entire term (wow ) with only one after-school detention, & that not for anything serious, just for not carrying the penalty-point/merit-point booklet they are supposed to have on them at all times - for him, that was very good behaviour.

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Blandmum · 12/07/2008 09:15

If it is loud enough to be heard easily then I think this is fair game.

selective grammar schools do well because they are selective and strict. To be blunt, you and ds must have gone out of your way to get into the school because of its good results etc.

the results are good because the kids are bright and because it has a tight discipline policy ( a good thing IMHO). But that will mean that things like this will be jumped on.

St Crapulous down the road might have been more forgiving, but you probably didn't want him to go there because the behaviour was poor.

Blandmum · 12/07/2008 09:09

the bog standard where I work would be three days for swearing at at teacher.

so if kid goes 'Fuck off' 3 days.

Shouting 'Bitch' at a teacher whould get the same.

Walking away muttering 'bitch' under the breath would get a lunch time detention and a formal letter of apology

Elkat · 12/07/2008 00:49

Okay, one question I would ask that I think is significant that you have not clarified...

Who was there when he called the teacher a 'nob' and how loud did he say it? It is one thing to mutter it under your breath in anger (in which case I would agree probably OTT) but it is a completely different scenario if your son was loudly calling (even if not directly to his face) the teacher a 'nob' in front of other students. The two are completely different situations imho and should be handled differently - one is letting off steam, the other is defiance / rudeness etc...

janeite · 11/07/2008 22:38

Yes, I wasn't reacting to the word "nob" per se; any word would have done I reckon!

The "fair cop" attitude is very true actually. Years ago we had two pupils who were caught with cannabis. One (v bad previous history) said sorry and grovelled and got another chance; the other, (less history but unhelpful parent) was more "so what" about it and got transferred elsewhere. A shame, as she would have been the one to get the higher grades.

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WendyWeber · 11/07/2008 22:10

Sympathy to your sister, cornsilk. There are a lot of these boys about

Heated, yes, he is smart enough in theory! In fact in some ways he is one of the charming rogues, they know he is honest & trustworthy & he does get a certain amount of credit by owning up & being straight with them. I'm hoping he can get through the next year - fingers & toes crossed - without crossing this particular deputy head again...(the previous incumbent is retiring this term, he was always one of the fair ones)

Trouble is that in theory he is potentially liable for a "managed transfer", which was mentioned by the head in the phone call I got on Wed, although when I said I wondered if any of the local schools would take him on if the grammar excluded him there was some back-pedalling about not wanting to do him out of his probable A*s (or not doing the school out of them...??? )

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cornsilk · 11/07/2008 21:50

He sounds just like my nephew who was always being suspended from High School mainly because he couldn't stop himself from coming out things such as 'What a nob.' My sister was at her wits end with him. He also 'clashed' with some of the teachers.

Heated · 11/07/2008 21:45

It would have been the defiance at the end - not so much the word 'nob' - that would have got him his 3 days.

Lots of the charming rogues, I suspect, get away with it, because when busted they take it manfully on the chin, with a 'hands-up, it's a fair cop' attitude. He's surely clever enough to work that one out WW? He would have got the same at my grammar school I'm afraid (now hoping it's not the same one!).

Yep, my step-brother got 5 days exclusion for getting the hostel's parrot in the bar drunk, by feeding it the dregs of his beer when on a 6th form field trip. My father was not happy (being a senior member of staff ):he would rather the punishment fit the crime & would have sent him to clear out animal cages at the nearby animal sanctuary for a month!

janeite · 11/07/2008 21:29

Good luck!

Piffle · 11/07/2008 21:29

ah wendy teachers were ok tbh, bound by rules, had to be seen to be doing The Right Thing, making an example... Possibly this is a method they are employing with your son right now.
there is always a straw to break the camels back.
but yes also always onejobsworth

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WendyWeber · 11/07/2008 21:27

Thanks, janeite - yes, he had got away with the badge thing until that point. He isn't taught by the deputy - deputy does take a Y10 maths class but not DS2's, luckily.

I like your suggested wording - I will try to get that in if head has time (prob not though )

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WendyWeber · 11/07/2008 21:21

I remember DS1's knife incident, piffle There are so many really good, kind, fair teachers in our schools, it's a shame that 1 or 2 jobsworths feel they have to throw their weight around.

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janeite · 11/07/2008 21:21

"son" not "on" sorry.

janeite · 11/07/2008 21:20

I think if he'd managed to have bitten back the "nob" comment, he probably would have got away with just the telling off. However, the deputy, having heard it, would then need to follow it up. Calling teachers names is such a hard one: on the one hand it sounds like a fairly little thing in the grand scheme of things but on the other hand, if you don't punish it, it will get worse.

I do however think he would be very wise to keep out of the deputy's way for a while (assuming he isn't taught by him?).

I wouldn't say anything to the head about vindictiveness or heavy-handedness but it might be wise to have a quick word without your son there and say something along the lines of "I do not expect there to be any more incidences of silly behaviour; however if there are, I wonder if perhaps they could be dealt with by HOY or yourself, rather than Mr X, as I feel that perhaps on is more likely to over-react and make things worse if Mr X is involved."

That way you suggest that there is a personality clash, without making a huge fuss about it and without denying your son's wrong-doings.

You sound like just the sort of parent I like in my HOY role - reasonable and supportive and wanting to work as a team with the school!

Piffle · 11/07/2008 21:19

ooh tough one
one its own wendy def over the top...
but when combined...
the more he transgressed, despite the lack of "crime"
thr harder they will come down?
ds also selective hardcore grammar