GCSEs in England: which subjects / how many are compulsory? What can each school force kids to take?

No worries. There used to be a GCSE in Home Economics: Child Development, but it became a technical award (after Gove, I think - I think in NI the GCSE still exists). GCSE ICT was abolished as well (IGCSE still exists) and also became a technical award. (I love computer science and programming skills are my daily bread and butter but I privately think IT probably was and is more useful to a much larger group of children.) GCSE Engineering already exists.

It is a bit confusing to me as to what was until now "worthy" of being a GCSE and what wasn't. I don't think GCSE music is any less vocational (albeit for a vanishing species, the aspiring classical musician) than construction or IT, tbh. Surely construction can be at least as complex as engineering. Child development could be just as rigorous as psychology, but with a practical application. And so on.

Aaargh sorry too late to edit it was @sashh that conflated ebacc and P8 apols

Yeh I saw that story, Tbh my old school used to offer child dev but maybe it was a Btec not a GCSE (I thought it was a GCSE but not checked). Interesting though. We will see.

@SoftIce you are conflating ebacc and Progress 8 there somewhat – progress 8 does not have to include a humanity and an MFL, that's the ebacc – which schools are no longer going to be judged on, so insistence on it (already fading IME) may disappear.

For Progress 8 Eng and maths count double (so it's not really about 8 GCSEs as I understand it) and yes, the Ebacc "bucket" currently exists but subjects outside it also count.

Progress 8 will change, but not be completely abolished (I think). It will have a "breadth" bucket instead of the EBACC bucket though, which may encourage a broader range of subjects as you say @sashh.

I also read an announcement that in the future there will be vocational GCSEs, so childcare, construction etc. will no longer be Technical Awards but GCSEs, presumably with the same 9-1 grading as academic GCSEs, which I like. (The different grading for current vocational subjects just encourages snobbery IMO. A practical subject can be very rigorous indeed, both in the theoretical framework required and in practical work - just look at music.)

On the subject of RE OP

Each school can pick the syllabus they want to teach, there can be huge differences.

All schools have to teach about at least 2 religions / faiths. So in an RC school they will usually teach RC religion and one other maybe Judaism.

Non faith schools normally teach a broader curriculum looking at a larger number of religions / faiths and then look at ethical and philosophical views of events.

So the class might look at poverty and food banks in the UK, what do people of various faiths do to alleviate poverty. Sikh temples feed people a hot meal. A lot of food banks are run by churches, do they require any attendance at a religious service to get food? What are the ethical considerations?

OP On the subject of the number of GCSEs, until now schools have been assessed on 'progress 8 and achievement 8'.

These are a grade the school can get for each pupil who passes GCSEs in 8 subjects, but they have to include English (Language and literature) maths, science, a language, and a humanity and then any other subjects.

Because of this schools have had quite strict rules about what subjects their students take.

That is being abolished so two things will potentially happen, a larger range of subject options become available so if you child is really good at art subjects they may opt for art, photography and textiles.

The other thing that I think will happen is that other qualifications will be taught. These are equivalent to GCSE but are usually more practical subjects, things like child care which I don't think is available for GCSE but is as a Level 2 qualification.

Your question about how many the school can force children to take may change as you go along. We've just been through the process and my DD is now in year 10 and I used to think she'd be 'forced' to take certain things but it's completely been my DD driving it and it become more about what extras are they permitted to take/what swaps are allowed, most students are excited by the options and want to take as many as possible. At her school the options on offer have changed each year she's been at the school which is why I think you've struggled to get a clear answer when visiting. It also depended on streaming so my DD in the top sets had a very fixed path with only free choice. Other pathways ranged from a mix of core GCSE's and vocational subjects, to fully vocational/SEN support classes. We later found that even on the most fixed route some of her friends had negotiated a different choice if they had a good reason. We're at an very large state academy though which may have more options than most. They all take RE as part of a compulsory health/ethics/relationship type programme that isn't a GCSE but fills some of their timetable, along with compulsory PE

DS1 (year 6) is keen to learn German. @clary Luckily our first choice secondary school offers it (as well as French, Spanish, and home MFL).

@ItalianParent we are currently doing the rounds of open evenings with DS1 and to be honest I've been approaching them more to see the 'vibe'/atmosphere of the school...for things like what subjects are available I've had much better luck going on the school website and finding the 'curriculum' section.

Much like pp's have said it looks like 9 GCSEs are standard (unless studying triple science or home MFL), plus a handful of DC do additional maths/statistics GCSE on top.

Yes and it is kind of self-fulfilling as well

• German is less popular so let’s drop it in favour of Spanish
• We don't need German teachers
• There are no jobs for German teachers so I better brush up my Spanish
• I can't learn German so I can't become a German teacher (admittedly that one is still working through!)

One thing that parents often don’t understand is that the number of subjects a pupil takes is limited by the timetable.

For example: a school has 60 lessons per fortnight, broken down into X lessons per subject plus 2 x PE, 2 x PSHE, 2 x enrichment (or whatever). Top set pupils (pathway A) do triple science in their science lessons, meaning they will come out with ten GCSEs. Most pupils (pathway B) do double science in the same number of lessons, and come out with nine GCSES. Some less able pupils/pupils with additional needs (pathway C) have extra English and Maths in one of the options blocks, and come out with eight GCSEs.

A pupil can’t randomly decide that they want to do an extra optional subject unless the school offers it at lunchtime/after school, because there’s nowhere in the timetable for it to go.

Equally, a pupil who isn’t on pathway C can’t hust decide that they don’t fancy doing nine GCSEs and only want to do eight, because they are then unsupervised and unaccounted for during those six or so lessons per fortnight.

Some schools offer a wider range of pathways, some narrower, but individual pupils will always be constrained by the pathways on offer (unless they have an EHCP and/or are on a part time timetable, but those pupils are in a different category really).

I think a major constraint on German is lack of teachers.

Yes there are lots of words for the in German
And three genders for nouns. But you deffo don't need genitive for GCSE and accusative is only different in masculine.

There are hard things about French too. It's imo much harder for an English person to get a good grasp of French pronunciation (which you need for speaking and listening) than German for instance.

I don’t agree btw that German is so very much harder than French or Spanish

@clary I did French and German O level and found remembering all the declensions for the word "the" tricky to remember in German. We had to learn all sorts of mnemonics to remember them. In French we had le and la. In German der, die and das, then nominative, accusative, dative and genitive. I found French much easier.

re Maths, English language (not literature), and Science (whether combined or separate) the only subjects which are, by law, compulsory for all?
No they aren't compulsory by law, but they are in the ones that MOST employers and further or higher education establishments will want so they are ones that schools usually include. Plus they give a basic grounding for being able to write well and formally which is useful in everyday life.

Is there a minimum or maximum number of subjects mandated by law? Does the law say something like: everyone must do those 3 above, but also at least 5 more of their choosing?
Nope nothing is mandated by law. Most colleges and sixth forms will want a minimum of 5 passes (4-9) including English and maybe maths for higher level studies such as A-levels or degrees. It is not illegal to fail or not take your GCSEs but if you want to go on to higher study or even many jobs, you will need them.

<strong>Can each school decide which other subjects are compulsory for its students? Eg if a school wants everyone to do religion, or history, or geography, or whatever, I presume families cannot object and say no, right?</strong>
Yes and No. Normally speaking a school can make up it's own rules for who takes what and what is blocked together. In theory, they couldn't force a child to take a particular subject like because they just feel like making every child take that subject, but equally the school could argue that the rule was everyone takes X and without very special circumstances, they would be allowed to say follow the rule or go elsewhere. A bit like uniform. If a school didn't want one, it wouldn't be illegal for them not to have one, but they can still punish kids who don't wear the uniform if that's the rule.

Can each school decide a minimum number of subjects for each student? Must this number be the same for all? Or can a school say: John should do 9 GCSEs and Jane should do 11? Can families object? Can a family say that 11 GCSEs are too many and they'd rather the kid did 8-9?

This is very practical. If John and Jane don't do the same number, what is John doing while Jane is in lessons for subjects he doesn't do? Does he get more English lessons while Jane is in subject he has dropped? How is that time tabled? Yes kids can drop GCSEs (I went from 10 to 8), but normally schools would only allow it in very particular circumstances. Otherwise you could have kids doing 1-12 and that would be impossible to time table. Generally it is expected that children in year 10 and 11 will have a certain number of subject lessons a day and so you can't have most children doing loads less subjects otherwise schools would have to run many other courses to enable the children to fulfil their school attendance hours.

@ItalianParent yes valid points about sixth form settings. My DD in particular didn’t want to move for A levels. I just wanted to flag that it is not unusual to move, so an A level concern might not be a deal breaker if everything else about a school was good. For example there are a couple of very good schools local to me which have no sixth form. So all of those DC move. The schools are still popular.

I don’t think there are any other short course GCSEs available apart from RE but happy to be told I am wrong there. As I say, the MFL ones don’t exist any more. I guess they were there to support students who had chosen an MFL but were finding it too much.

I don’t agree btw that German is so very much harder than French or Spanish. If learned from age 11 it’s more than possible to get a good grade; certainly no easier to get a top grade in French. I don’t know about Mandarin as (though I am a linguist) that’s not one I know.

Yes some schools insist on an MFL at GCSE. Some schools insist on history or geography. Some insist on a creative (drama, art, music). A school I worked in insisted all YP took a tech GCSE. It varies and if it is important to you it’s something to ask about.

@ItalianParent yes I see that you don’t mind DC learning RE at school, that’s clear. I never said you didn’t, nor that I didn’t understand that. I just think you are fixating on a minor point wrt the legal status or otherwise of RE GCSE.

So to answer your latest post – no GCSEs are actually compulsory (as I and lots of PPs have said). No one is mandated by law to take any GCSEs. Some people don’t take any. I know a few YP of whom that is true. But as a rule, most schools insist on a core offering of GCSEs that the vast majority of their students will take. This list varies a bit from school to school and from year to year (DS2 had to take Spanish but the school has now dropped the MFL requirement, for example).

The A level offering btw is not always a reason IMO to rule out a school at age 11; a lot of YP switch schools or go to college post-16, especially if they want to take A levels not offered at their KS3/4 setting.

Re the half RE GCSE mentioned by me and another PP – I just checked and it does still exist (there used to be a half or short course MFL GCSE as well but that has been dropped). A student studies half the course content and takes half the exams and receives a half GCSE. For MFL students used to do either writing and listening or speaking and reading assessments. I’m not sure what the RE one involves but I think study of fewer religions for example. It can be taken in a year or studied over two years (with fewer lessons). At my school they used to cover the material in one lesson a week through year 10 and 11.

You have said several times that the school said there is a law which makes religious education GCSE compulsory. That is not the same as saying the pupil has to take the exam, which is what you are now saying. And I'm really not sure why you are so exercised over this. Your child must attend RE classes by law. The school cannot force your child to turn up on the day of the exam. However, since your child will have completed the course, they might as well get the qualification if they can.

By the way, if the school says your child must take a particular GCSE, they mean your child must attend the course. They cannot choose not to attend the course and take another subject instead. The school cannot force any child to take any exam, but they can force them to take the course leading up to the exam.

Legally none are compulsory. State schools are judged on best 8, 5 of which must be core. Different schools will have different polices on what they consider compulsory.

It's a one year course called GCSE short course.

Financial literacy needs to be a priority. It's not even a considered subject. Absolute insanity