Can children get into selective secondaries without tutoring or holiday courses?

My daughter’s friend was whipped into shape daily (very strict parents) and in a prep school she didn’t get into HBS this academic year she was incredibly bright (top in the year group). Not sure if location was the issue but she didn’t get a place. However, she did get scholarships in a few different schools.

I think HBS is incredibly tough (not sure if location was the issue as out of area) however I’d say the grammers are getting harder to get into. Private secondary getting easier to get into as lack of cash / increased fees so less demand.

I do think schools alter the marks / cut off point if you are at a state school or a prep school.

If your going to a selective your child has to LOVE learning and want to work otherwise it isn’t going to be a pleasant experience for them.

I have over 20 years experience teaching Y6 in a north London primary in an affluent area where around 1/4 of our children go to selectives (mainly private due to how difficult it is to get into non fee paying selectives). Despite what people say, I have never known a child to get in without extra work. Most of the time this is private tutoring, and it really needs to start by Year 4. I have known some be successful through tutoring from parents, but this tends to only work with exceptionally bright children and very disciplined parents.
As others have said, it is not just about being bright, it is learning examine technique and this takes practice.

I know of a family who got two kids into hyper selective South West secondaries
with zero preparation
older one did not remember the exam was on
but the younger one is currently at Oxbridge !

They tutor, and lie and say they don’t. Or parents sit with kids and work through the books.

I think if you're at an indie already, it's different as they're preparing everyone for 11+ to sme extent. Certainly from Dd's state school, you wouldn't have been able to get in without some tutoring as the exams were at the start of Y6 and, particularly in Maths, tested work like long division/ multiplication that they didn't do until later on in Y6.

It’s difficult but possible. The biggest thing is always exam technique as the questions aren’t like what they do school. If your child is bright enough they just need to practise a lot of questions without specific tutoring. It is very child dependant so always hard to say whether a child can manage without. Probably worth getting a few sessions at the very least just to run over tricky stuff.

I think the all through indies are usually a bit rubbish at this because they have a vested interest in you staying. So totally understand why you would need a tutor in those circumstances, who can help with exam technique etc.

DD didn’t have any tutoring or do any holiday courses, along with most of her more academic friends. They all got into selective secondaries, some including DD with academic scholarships. Some of her other friends needed a bit more help, some got it, some didn’t. So it’s really about the child.

Edited for additional context:

It also depends on how much the primary/prep school does to ready the children for entrance exams/CE. DD went to a prep school that did a lot - especially focusing on exam technique. If your primary/prep doesn’t focus on that, then I think tutoring is probably necessary.

I’d also add that parents were very involved in all cases in supporting the learning of the DCs. So substituting to a degree what a tutor can do (obvs not everything unless they are qualified teachers themselves). “Enrichment” activities at weekends etc can make a huge difference.

We are in that area and most people we know have tutored - the ones who insist that they didn't tutor simply had a parent sit with them and go over the questions a few times a week - i.e. exactly what a tutor would do, just unpaid.

Girls we know who didn't do tutoring at all were aiming at the more middling schools, eg Channing or Queens, which aren't as selective, and/or were at preps, so covered the material in school.

If you can afford it and your daughter has enjoyed it, I'd just do it anyway, it's a fairly small cost compared to what you'll be paying for education (if going to the independent schools), and doesn't take too much of a time commitment.

Of course it’s possible, it will entirely depend on your child’s abilities specifically related to the entrance exam though. No one is going to be able to tell you whether your child would be able to do it without tutoring or not.

Mine did. Both got into an academically selective independent secondary on academic scholarships with no tutoring/extra work outside of their normal state primary.

I can't comment on those specific schools but I am in SW London with a similar mix of private and competitive grammars. The main thing they need prep for is working to time and exam technique. At our grammars, especially for maths, there are many many questions and it's about being fast in order to get more marks. So I'd say they really need speed experience but not necessarily at a high pressure camp.