Private Boarding vs. Day School vs. Grammar

The very experienced head teacher of my daughter’s former primary said “it’s the child, not the school.”
It’s well worth bearing in mind.
It’s probably easier to get into most private schools than the best selective grammars as well. Those schools are best for naturally gifted and studious children, not ones who have to be forced through additional tuition (though tuition is absolutely needed.)

Quote from the national secondary school data published by Teacher Tapp (the primary organization tracking school logistics in the UK) in their report, "Organisation of classes in secondary schools":
"Maths has the highest levels of attainment grouping, increasing from 66% in Year 7 to 87% in Year 11. English and science show steady increases in grouping, starting at 37% and 31% respectively in Year 7 and rising to 63% for English and 73% for science by Year 11."

teachertapp.com/articles/organisation-of-classes-in-secondary-schools/?hl=en-GB#:~:text=Maths%20has%20the%20highest%20levels,for%20science%20by%20Year%2011.

Private schools teach to pass the exams, more than state schools. I’m not saying going to private isn’t better than state, but the GCSE results difference doesn’t show the full picture.

I really am interested in seeing your evidence but the link you provided is to a blog which hasn't been updated since 2019 and I cannot find a specific report with either the 88% or 60% numbers. Would you be able to link to the specific papers with those numbers?

"While it eventually peaks at around 88% by the time students reach Year 11 (especially in Mathematics), the baseline survey found that roughly six in ten schools (approx. 60%) do not wait until upper years. Instead, they implement strict attainment sets during the autumn term of Year 7."

I don't know if that was a direct quote (if so, would you link to the document?) but the first half of the statement, which you chose not to bold, is clearly about math and I suspect that the portion you bolded also refers primarily to math.

I am not questioning the 88% number for math in Year 11. Indeed, my source indicates 89% in Year 10.

I would not question the "60% of schools use structured ability grouping right away in Year 7" statement if that refers to math. My source indicates 69% in Year 8.

But I would question the assertion of 60% in Year 7 if that is supposed to be for subjects outside of math. My source indicates that only 30% of students are set in English in Year 8, and only 27% of students are set in sciences in Year 8.

To summarize, I believe we agree that it is common for schools to set in math from Year 7 and it is extremely common for schools to set in math at GCSE.

Do we disagree about whether it is common for schools to set in any subjects other than math before GCSE?

It's very patronising to say that valuing education and discipline is a "middle-class mindset", as if working classes do not have these values.

In fact, in some areas it's exactly the other way round - Michaela is being viciously attacked by MC who cannot come to terms with the fact that working class families DO value education and very strict discipline.

Sorry who said "there are no schools with sets"? 🤔

I have data for Maths that 60 percent but e.g my son's school is doing from y 7 English&Drama, Maths, Science. At the end of my road is another school with sets. Quite a few in the area.
Instead of saying: there are no schools with sets maybe it is worth checkingwhen looking for state school.

History, Geography etc is in sets from y10
My son manages to learn geography and History and it is not like the rest of kids are roaring when the teacher speaks. It would end up with instant detention. It is the matter what is the school like, what is the discipline like. My son attends Catholic school

I am not sure whether paying private means the kids will better behave. My son went to summer camps with kids from private. Alcohol, cigarettes are not rare there and my son was horrified how they behaved. Passing 11+ and affluence of parents is not a guarantee of good behaviour and right values

The specific estimate that approximately 60% of schools use structured ability grouping right away in Year 7 comes from the baseline mapping and tracking data collected by the UCL Institute of Education research team.
When conducting their initial school surveys for the Best Practice in Grouping Students study, they examined how a cohort of nearly 25,000 pupils across English secondary schools were organized upon transition from primary school.
The researchers tracked how class organization changed across specific subjects:
The Progression to 88%: The data shows that setting is a progressive curve. While it eventually peaks at around 88% by the time students reach Year 11 (especially in Mathematics), the baseline survey found that roughly six in ten schools (approx. 60%) do not wait until upper years. Instead, they implement strict attainment sets during the autumn term of Year 7.
The Remainder: The remaining ~40% of schools typically start Year 7 with mixed-attainment or tutor-group teaching for core subjects before introducing structured ability sets later in Year 8 or Year 9.
The full breakdown of these tracking patterns, baseline cohort demographics, and the data regarding how quickly schools split pupils into separate classrooms can be found in the project's published academic books, such as Reallocating the Future and Social Justice and Capability in Education, as well as the open-access papers compiled on their official research hub.

https://blogs.ucl.ac.uk/grouping-students/?hl=en-GB

OP, both of my DC are in a single sex grammar school and I also work in one (not the one where my DC go). There are kids from all sort of backgrounds, religious beliefs, race, nationalities, financial and family situations. It’s not an uniform, “only well to do middle class families” bubble as MN likes to always claim.

Re unqualified teachers in private schools, my friend grew up in France and taught French in a local private school for a year prior to doing a PGCE. But that was 20 years ago, my understanding is that it wouldn’t happen now.

I echo your concern about 'spoon-feeding.' My DD is currently in a private prep school, and I have observed among her classmates and their parents a sense of entitlement, complacency, and a tendency to look down on state schools.

Op you will get just as much of a tendency to look down on private school students and parents by state school parents and students . Poshos, thick, snobbish and so on.

It depends on the school surely.

We live in an area with excellent Grammar Schools. The private/ indie schools are second choice if DC don’t pass the 11+. Several have closed over the years, way before VAT.

Both of my DC had an amazing time at their Grammar schools with a wide curriculum and lots of sport, music and drama. DS’s school had sets for maths and PE. No disruption, no bullying issues. Both have university friends that went to indie schools and the experiences weren’t much different.

Private schools don't always have the same requirements to have qualified teachers eg as State Schools

My understanding is that schools which are academies (an increasing number of state schools) don’t either.

However, although this point often comes up on these threads, I would be very surprised (and would welcome some stats!) if the vast majority of private school teachers don’t have a teaching qualification. If the school has a choice of a candidate who has and one who doesn’t, why would they pick one who doesn’t? Not to mention that if you want to have a lifelong career in teaching, it makes sense not to limit yourself on employers by ensuring you have the qualification.

Not all private schools have entrance exams.

Setting and streaming are not the same thing. Streaming is where the same thirty kids are in all the same lessons together, and those groupings are divided by ability. My mum went to grammar school in the 1960s and they had the A Stream, B Stream, C Stream etc. Very few state schools do this any more, although it's becoming increasingly common to have a 'grammar stream', where 30 kids are selected in year 7 or 8 and taught apart from the rest of the year group in their own classes. A friend's child goes to a school like this, and the 'grammar stream' are being taught Latin etc. It's usually a way to entice middle-class parents to send their kids to an otherwise quite rough school.
Setting is when children are divided based on ability in different subjects. A child can be in top set for Maths and bottom set for English. Most schools that set do it for certain subjects and have mixed ability for others.
The fact that 60% of schools set for maths, does not contradict the fact that very few state schools do streaming. They are different things.

Education is more than academic results. It's widening your life experience ie meeting people of all/different backgrounds - rich and poor, and understanding their lives. A prerequisite for adult life and certainly for many, many careers where you meet the general public and need to understand their backgrounds.

Research tells us that Private/Grammar schools may at best be worth an extra 1/2 grade at A level. ( Private schools don't always have the same requirements to have qualified teachers eg as State Schools and many private schools don't enter their staff for the Teachers' Superannuation Scheme so have lost qualified staff for that reason.)

Sutton Trust research also shows us that Comprehensive / non selective state school students get higher class degrees than privately educated and grammar school peers with identical GCSE and A level results, both at University and at post Graduate level.
Inclusive, socially diverse environment of comprehensive schools fosters better adaptability, flexibility and independent learning skills - which translates well into higher education.
UCL research found that the brightest pupils' chances of achieving to GCSE grades are are actually higher in Comprehensive schools than in grammar schools, while middle and lower attaining students in top comprehensives significantly outperform their peers in selective areas.

Less spoon feeding and more true education? Why pay huge sums for an inferior product?

Only in maths, as PP said. Yes, sets are usual for maths though 60% is still not 100%, but you also need to study everything else, somehow :) In our mixed history class some parents could not understand what's the point in analysing sources 🤷‍♀️

It's one thing to look for schools with sets, it's entirely another to claim all state schools set :) It's very far from reality.

There is nothing standard and universal in British education.

I live near a famous grammar. It gets over 3000 applicants for its 90 places. The most academic private schools might get 5-10 applicants per place.

I'm not sure what we're disputing here. PP claimed "most state schools stream". The data in the link does not support that. Neither have you provided any evidence of that. All my posts on the topic have specified that "the vast majority" of schools set in math from Year 8. If you disagree with one of my statements, please do me the kindness to quote it.

60 percent ifrom y 7 is uncommon?

It is very common

Are you not able to click through to the links in my posts? The data there is consistent both with what you've written and what I wrote earlier.

• Streaming by general ability is quite uncommon
• Setting in math is very common from Year 8, at the latest
• Setting in subjects other than math is uncommon before GCSE

What you've quoted provides no support for PP's assertion "most state schools are streamed".

You didn't notice that 60 percent is in sets from year 7?

It is about going to right school. I was specifically looking for school with sets

What do you mean?