Private Boarding vs. Day School vs. Grammar

Research into ability groupings is mixed. Most studies that find an impact (in either direction) report very small effect sizes (including the one above). I don’t have a particular axe to grind about it and think particularly for maths they can be useful. However, the impact they have on progress and attainment (in either direction) is quite small & there are challenges with the interpretation of the research. However, I won’t derail the thread with what could quickly turn into an essay.

On average, students at grammar schools generally get more homework, or at the very least, much more academically demanding homework than students at comprehensive schools.

Sigh. Sources? Young people do engage in academically demanding class and homework at comprehensives. Some actually attain quite highly ….

This has neither been proven nor even strongly demonstrated. It remains quite controversial. For example, a study released only two months ago by the Education Endowment Foundation at the UCL Institute of Education found:

• Students in schools using mixed attainment grouping made one month’s less progress in mathematics, on average, compared to students in schools using setting by attainment. This is our best estimate of impact, which has a low/moderate security rating.
• Among students eligible for free school meals (FSM), those in school using mixed attainment grouping made similar progress in mathematics, on average, compared to those in schools using setting by attainment. These results may have lower security than the overall findings because of the smaller number of students.
• Among low-prior attaining students, those in schools using mixed attainment grouping made similar progress in mathematics, on average, compared to students in schools using setting by attainment. These results may have lower security than the overall findings because of the smaller number of students.
• Among high-prior attaining students, those in schools using mixed attainment grouping made, on average, two fewer months’ progress in mathematics compared to students in schools using setting by attainment. These results may have lower security than the overall findings because of the smaller number of students.

It seems pretty clear that for the things you value - academics, academic peer group, motivated peer group, cost - grammar is going to win.

Other parents may value other things that private can provide such as great facilities, more support for extra curricular talents, more flexibility over timetable/subject choices, greater staff ratios etc.

Other parents may have much more money and so not be too bothered about the “pounds per hour” calculation you are doing.

Other parents may not have grammar available to them either because of where they live or their child’s ability.

As for boarding: yes it offers more time at school, obviously, but most of the extra time is sleeping or hanging out. Immersion into school isn’t necessarily a positive unless you need wraparound/overnight childcare.

The justification will vary from family to family. This is not surprising surely.

@Breeze67

It is a myth with that less homework.

On average, students at grammar schools generally get more homework, or at the very least, much more academically demanding homework than students at comprehensive schools.

The biggest difference usually isn't just the time spent, but the complexity of the tasks:
Grammar homework tends to feature highly independent, "open-ended" tasks-such as advanced essay writing, deep research projects, or complex mathematical problem-solving. The same in top sets in comprehensive schooks
Comprehensive homework in middle and lower sets often utilises structured, targeted tasks designed to make sure every student has grasped the core curriculum before moving on

Ultimately, if someone is looking for an environment with less evening study and lower academic pressure, a grammar school is rarely the place they will find it.

They also have longer school days and fewer holidays than the grammar school.

In the UK, both grammar schools and comprehensives are state-funded secondary schools, meaning they are bound by the same overarching government guidelines regarding school hours.
Here is how the breakdown works:

• The 32.5-Hour Minimum: The government requires all mainstream, state-funded schools in England to deliver a minimum school week of 32.5 hours. This averages out to about 6.5 hours per day (for example, 8:45 AM to 3:15 PM), including registration, assemblies, lunch, and breaks.

• School Autonomy: Individual schools—regardless of whether they are selective grammar schools or non-selective comprehensives—have the legal right to determine their own specific start and end times. Because of this, you will find slight variations from town to town, but it is entirely based on the specific school's decision rather than its classification.

@Stowickthevast Yes, it is a real pity! I know there are plenty of access initiatives - and the tickets my daughter had were often special deals for schools so it was costing relatively little. I think the problem is attitude rather than opportunity tbh. We have a local theatre that does brilliant schools stuff and my daughter's primary took full advantage of this but the comprehensive doesn't seem to. It's a good school too. I don't know anyone who is unhappy with it, but things like this were pretty offputting to me since life is about more than just good grades and academics and I think having access to creative stuff is incredibly important.

In contrast, the local comprehensive gives much more homework.

The stats show relation between homework and exam results. Sounds like you have a good comprehensive there.

seems to focus more on student learning independently and working efficiently.

Yes, they dump it all on you as a parent and your child. Sorry but in education there are no shortcuts as " efficiently". One has to spend time over books, excercises at home or at school. This grammar sounds like a lot of parent involvement to get the results.

They also have longer school days and fewer holidays than the grammar school.
That is not possible with holidays. That would be something very unusual. All state schools including grammar have the same holidays, half terms etc and it is coordinated by the local Councils. And there are several reasons why is like that. The lenght of school day in grammar and state schools is also similar. 30 min is at max difference between schools

Private schools have more holidays and have different timing. I always considered it a rip off. Paying for much less education, shorter hours and lenghty holidays.

Has far fewer students on free school meals (under 10%) than the comprehensive school (over 30%).
If a parent was unemployed for 1 month or two the kid is on Free meals for the kast few years. I believe only in Sept there will be a review of it.
Free Meals in this economy say very little about parents. They could be IT specialists that lost jobs.

Also, fewer students there need extra learning support (under 5% vs over 15%). It seems that because the students at the grammar school come from more well-off families and have fewer learning difficulties.

My son has dyspraxia. It means he is very slow at handwriting. He gets laptop at tests. Yet he manages to be in top top sets. There are many reasons why kids get learning support. Grammar schools are full of brilliant kids who are high functioning ASD - talented at mathsz sciences. Often they have behaviour issues

The super-selective grammar schools always have far fewer children on FSM, generally because low income households are unable to afford the intensive tutoring needed to get into these schools. And generally children with learning difficulties will also find it harder to access the level needed to pass grammar school exams. There are definitely some children at my eldest's school that are autistic or ADHD but fewer than at my youngest's school because the school is super selective. It's self fulfilling.

@BonjourCrisette that's a real pity. Quite a lot of the theatres do programmes that support state school access, my youngest's school has done things in the past with the Old Vic and Donmar Warehouse. My Y9 has been twice this year, once was to Stratford rather than the west end but still a great experience, and they also went to a Q&A with Jacinda Ardern promoting her new film. We're a similar distance to you from the centre.

ahahaha I have been on your thread from the beginning and read everything, thanks.

I stand by my reply to you.

Yowza to that last post…

You understand that learning support requirements for conditions such as dyslexia is not linked to the earnings of parents, right?

But the more you post, the more I wonder why you started with such a general comparison of types of school, when you are in quite an unusual area from the sounds of it (I could hazard a guess as to which is the comprehensive you are talking about).

But you also said above that the local state school was too strict and too much homework was given. If this is a problem then please understand that grammar school is not more relaxed.
You have to know your child if she is an academic type or not. Not everybody has to be. If she is then strict school will be suitable

@Stowickthevast

It was me who mentioned drama GCSE. We too are in London. Our closest comprehensive did precisely zero theatre trips for drama. It would probably take us about half an hour on public transport to get to the West End.

Different grammar areas have different selection criteria.
Some areas are super-selective where scores are ranked and they take the top ranking students.
Other areas, like Bucks, require a minimum score and then other admissions criteria is applied.

Similar to @Stowickthevast both myself and my DH went to private school. The local grammar schools are very good, the good local private schools are just too expensive for us

@Breeze67 do you have any friends with older kids at the comprehensive? That was my best source of information about what schools in our area were really like.

I have one DC at grammar and one at a very good local comp. The main difference is fewer opportunities for travel, and extra curriculars. For example, grammar school has week long language exchanges and school trips for language students, whereas the comp did a day trip to France. Someone mentioned drama up thread, the comp still goes to the theatre quite a bit for drama GCSE, but we're in London so more availability. The drama facilities at the grammar are much better though, the music offering is amazing and sport is reasonable.
The grammar school obviously gets better results but it should do as it's super selective. But I don't think my younger DC will end up with vastly different results to their grammar school sibling, and both will be considering similar 6th forms and unis.

One other difference is daily life. Youngest's school has less than a mile's catchment, it's 15 minutes walk and all their friends live in the area. Eldest school has a huge catchment and it takes them 50 mins commute to get to school, and lotsof their friends live that far away. I do think this is worth considering when you think about what their daily life will be like. If you're getting home early, you have more time to do that homework.

FWIW DH and I both went to private schools but didn't think it was worth the sacrifice given the standard of state schools in our area.

Apologies what I was trying to say is that mixing abilities in one class rather than separating has a more positive outcome for all students grades in that class.

Which grammar school area are you applying for? Is it super selective?

its approach is simply too rigid for her.

In what way is the comprehensive’s approach too rigid for her @Breeze67 ?