What is the real value of highly selective independents/grammars now?

Very bright and motivated DC1 went to a comprehensive. Came out of theee witb 4x Astar at A-Level and a place at Imperial College. They got a 1st at Imperial.

The keys to DC1’s success were (1) their aptitude and level of motivation (2) having an excellent teacher in the subject they chose to study and (3) being at a comprehensive with a very small sixth form so the class sizes were tiny eg DC1 + 1 other in Physics, DC1 + 3 others in Chemistry.

@user149799568 to be honest the school we are in has a lot of middle class wealthy children, and there are quite a few who have said they want their kids to 'climb trees and have fun. The parents have money, the kids are spoilt, and will still do ok in life. So the children just dont bother and take for granted the expensive education in the school (independent). Im a child of immigrants and we put a huge focus on education hence the demographic in places like QE Boys. So even in the private sector, you get the kids who just mess around too, so again if you want more, then you have to go to more academic schools.

To those saying things like “surrounded by like-minded students” and “parents who value education” these are basically code words for you want your child to be surrounded by other middle-class children.

I want my DC to be surrounded by children who are more disciplined and hard working than the national average. I want my DC to be surrounded by children whose parents force, not merely encourage, them to complete their assignments on time, and who will ensure they catch up if they're falling behind, whether through extra work themselves or through paid tutoring. I want my DC to be surrounded by children who believe there is a point to learning what they are being taught at school and that a better education is worth the effort.

As it happens, these attributes are positively correlated with middle-class status. But the correlation is not perfect. I would much rather my DC were surrounded by children of, for example, recent immigrants who are desperate for their children to achieve academic success because they view this as the best path to a better life, than for them to associate with children whose parents are well-off enough to want to "let children be children" and to "let them enjoy their one childhood".

In my experience, the best teachers stay in state.

The best teacher for a given student or cohort is not necessarily the best teacher for every student or cohort. The ability to manage poor behavior is less important if a school can minimize this behavior, whether by excluding poorly behaved students as in most independents, or by accepting fewer of them in the first place, as in most academically selective schools, both state and independent. The ability to teach all students well in a mixed ability setting is less important if the ability range in a classroom is narrow, as in most academically selective schools, both state and independent. A deeper knowledge of the subject material is more important if most students in a classroom are expected to get 8/9 at GCSE, or A/A+ at A Level, as at most academically selective schools, both state and independent.

People move to private or grammar schools for an “easy” life.

On this we agree; every teacher I've ever asked about this has said that it's easier to teach a well behaved classroom full of high achievers. But I have no reason to believe that "better" teachers are any more likely to prefer a "hard" life and remain in comprehensive schools. And I have some reason to believe that teachers with high specialist knowledge are more likely to prefer to teach at academically selective schools, whether state or independent, where they can teach to a higher academic level.

To those saying things like “surrounded by like-minded students” and “parents who value education” these are basically code words for you want your child to be surrounded by other middle-class children. Maybe just be honest.

So you think "parents who value education" equates to "middle class parents" only and poor people cannot value education?

That's an interesting outlook for a state school teacher 😂

@fairyring25 bogstandard comp, bogstandard area, I assure you. We may, on occasion, get a PE teacher delivering Y8 Geography for example, or a science teacher delivering Y7 Maths. All Y10 and upwards is delivered by specialists. Teacher recruitment is a nationwide problem I agree, for all types of schools. But private schools do not attract the best of the profession, in my experience.

@Platypus7 You must be at one of the only state schools in the country where children at state schools at GCSE and A-level are being taught entirely by specialists. My friends' children at the local comprehensive have had many non specialist teachers even at A-level. They are constantly complaining about this. I also know that every single comprehensive school in my local area has had problems recruiting teachers and constantly have cover teachers. I live in an area with an increasing population.

Not our experience at all about the specialist teachers. My DD has consistently had specialist teachers at her independent school. Even when the usual issues of maternity leave and long term sickness have happened, the school has been able to rearrange staff or get in specialist cover. Her local friends have been through significant teaching gaps at our local comp. The issues haven't been short term and haven't been covered by specialist staff. The use of non-specialists hasn't been restricted to KS3.

Sciences are taught separately by subject specialists at my DD's school. I used to be a science teacher in the state sector and the expectation was that we could and would teach all 3 sciences to GCSE. My highest qualification in biology was a GCSE, no way was I really a 'specialist'.

There is a shortage of teachers in some subjects. I suspect that isn't impacting highly selective independent and grammar schools in the same way it is impacting some other schools.

The figure for sixth formers lies between the two. It isnt above 15%, but is above 7%.

13% of a level entries in 2024 were from private schools. However, the proportion of sixth formers in private schools is likely lower as BTEC and other vocational qualifications are not commonly offered in private schools.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/provisional-entries-for-gcse-as-and-a-level-summer-2024-exam-series/provisional-entries-for-gcse-as-and-a-level-summer-2024-exam-series#entries-by-centre-type

My son went to a super selective for sixth form. The difference he has noticed is there is no bullying. They only offer the usual A level subjects , not anything different like business or politics.

As an experience DS would have mixed feelings about the ss grammar. On one hand the pupils aim high - DS is going to UCL in September. He probably would have gone to university which required lower grades if he’d gone to the local comp. But on the other it’s a really unreal experience with lots of the children of very middle class parents who are very aspirational.

DS had teachers who moved from his grammar to the comp and back as they simply didn’t fit in at the comp.

Why on earth would you think teachers at private, grammar etc have higher qualifications?! If anything, private schools can get away with appointing teachers without proper teaching qualifications. It is absolutely not true that in comprehensives “many” students are taught by non-specialists. That may happen occasionally in KS3 but not at GCSE.

In my own personal experience the state school students tend to be more well-rounded, streetwise and independent. Just my own observations.

To those saying things like “surrounded by like-minded students” and “parents who value education” these are basically code words for you want your child to be surrounded by other middle-class children. Maybe just be honest.
Actually no, the school my DC go/went to is not at all middle class. We chose it because it was a faith school (80% Christian, 20% other faiths). And yes, because of that parents have to make a really active choice to send their DC there so probably do value education. But the other reason we chose it was because it has a city wide catchment -our city is not a rich city- and an incredibly diverse cohort. We could have chosen our local comp which is very middle class but we did not. My DC have a wide and varied friendship group, the commonality is that they are bright and ambitious and have parents who want the best for them.

@Platypus7 There are good and bad teachers in both comprehensive, grammar and private schools. However, I would guess though that the average teacher in a grammar and selective private school would have higher qualifications than a comprehensive school-in terms of being more likely to have gone to the top 10 universities. State school teachers may be better at discipline with disruptive classes but I think private school teachers have a better grasp of subject knowledge. In comprehensives many children are taught by non-specialists and I think this is terrible especially at A-level. IMO, being taught by non-specialists is less likely to happen in a grammar or selective private school.
It is a complete generalisation to say that children who go to state school are more independent, street smart and generally confident. Children who go to a rural state school are going to be less street smart and independent than children at London day private school who often travel across London on their own to get to school. I would also say that many children who go to private schools have much more confidence in public speaking than children at state schools.

To those saying things like “surrounded by like-minded students” and “parents who value education” these are basically code words for you want your child to be surrounded by other middle-class children. Maybe just be honest.

I’m a teacher in a state school and I sent my children to the local state schools. I teach in a grammar school area and see first hand every year the effect on demoralised 11 year olds who feel like rejects before they even start, because they didn’t get into grammar school.

In my experience, the best teachers stay in state. People
move to private or grammar schools for an “easy” life. A friend of mine moved to a local grammar for a promotion and said she was amazed by the lazy teaching she saw - just turn to the next page of the textbook etc.

My DC have had a great time and lots of opportunities at the local state school. They have friends from all walks of life who all live locally, no massive commute (unlike the grammars) . Eldest DC is doing A Levels at the local sixth form, she is predicted straight As and is set to go to a Russel Group uni. Compared to children of friends who went to grammar/private the ones who went to state schools seem much more independent, street smart and generally confident.

@Goleen what school do your kids go to? (DM if you prefer?)

I can’t afford independent school for 2 kids (HHI is £300k btw!) so weighing up grammars vs comprehensives for my DC, who are both bright (DH and I also both went to Oxbridge, from working class families). We live in London and our local comp is one of the very strict ones, so looking to move.

For me (if I could afford it) the advantage of private schools would be the extra curricular opportunities, as both kids are very musical, and the peer group - kids with committed parents. Grammar offers some of this but not all, and the tutoring regime is depressing (have no doubts my kids would succeed, but so unnecessary).

@Stowickthevast The number of private dc in 6th forms was always above 15%. So 7% was never accurate. There’s always the issue that very bright parents in high paying roles are found in many good private schools. They have extra bright dc. They also accept bursary dc that skews the numbers too. Then there’s the subjects offered and teaching. Eg: look at MFLs. Oxbridge are unashamedly requiring literature to be studied. Many dc want to swerve this. So plenty of bright dc from the comps don’t see the teaching as suiting them.

Oxbridge don't really favour state school pupils. There are still around 30% private school pupils at each compared to a national average of 7%. State school students may get slightly lower offers depending on circumstances.

Exeter has quite generous contextual offers based on postcode.

@Pinko1 Most have contextual offers. These vary on how they calculate them. Bristol is on school attended. My local secondary is on the list. Many well off parents use it because we are an expensive housing area. Certainly very nice cars pick up dc! However it’s not a grammar so doesn’t have the top 20% ish. However plenty in £1 million houses there and they get special consideration. Other unis consider different aspects.

Ive heard about Oxbridge favouring state pupils but what about other unis?

That’s interesting, but if you’ve noticed similar Oxbridge parents in your cohort, doesn’t it just push up the overall cohort grades against which your DC will be assessed for Oxbridge?

As an aside I went to one of the campus unis you mention and I agree about the “bubble” ❤️

@WoollyandSarah These were at primary, but yes, they are everywhere. Definitely not just at independents! DD avoided at secondary - she’s getting married in the autumn and numerous secondary school friends attending. Even one who was mean! She’s matured now!

We are in London and chose to send DD to a selective independent. She had gone to a prep school so we were used to small class sizes, more personalised teaching and plenty of sport and creative arts. We have one grammar within travelling distance but the location/journey wasn't ideal, and it offered less breadth and facilities. There is a very good comp locally where we were offered a place, but the class sizes were much bigger than she was used to and although it does well in academics and arts, it has a poor sports and languages offer and a small site. For many people the advantage of the independent would be considered marginal and not worth it in financial terms. We're fortunate to be in a position to afford it without sacrifices so we felt we wanted the best opportunities for DD and the most pleasant experience in terms of facilities, campus, trips and food. She's very happy there and doing well - perhaps she'd have done just as well at the comp but we're just pleased she's in the right environment for her needs.

Not sure how old your DD is, but I think there are mean girls everywhere. A significant proportion of teenage girls are horrid and I don't think that can really be avoided anywhere.

@wingingthings My DD could not wait to leave the numerous mean girls at her state primary. She encountered much nicer girls at her independent school. I know why we paid and I don’t regret it. Going to the grammar with the primary crowd was untenable. The competition amongst parents was intense as was coaching and tutoring. We didn’t do that so didn’t fit into the upwardly mobile at all costs brigade.

Eldest at grammar and did brilliantly. It wasn't super selective - just over the pass mark and in catchment and you're in. He had a brilliant bunch of friends and a fantastic experience. Sports were good and 6th form excellent. He got fantastic A levels and secured an incredible degree apprenticeship. The other two are at independent- my son has thrived and certainly had more sporting opportunities. I agree with other posters about a narrower social circle and my daughter can't wait to leave at post 16 to get away from the elitism, competition and mean girl vibe. I think it hits girls more than boys as my son's friends are a great bunch of boys from Indy - I wish I'd never wasted all the money on my daughter and let her stay with her friends from primary.

@HawaiiWake I think we can agree the privately educated dc at some unis is very high, but it’s what it is.

I think if you go to a good private school you do get “extras” that might not be available elsewhere in the state system. We didn’t just pay for exam results. We wanted dc to participate in as much as possible. To be encouraged to have a go. Some opportunities were very different from the local grammar! We did feel the education was more personal and we, as parents, felt included. It’s just different from a state school and both went on a terms exchange to South Africa in y9 for a term. So exam pressure wasn’t immense. They learnt a lot about themselves though.