Taking 3 or 4 A levels

We stipulate either 4 A levels or 3 A levels plus an EPQ. Some end up dropping the EPQ towards the end of y12. Seems to work well for us.

A poster earlier on the thread seemed to imply that this can’t be done, but in our experience yes it can.

I don’t think PP said that it can’t be done, just that in the past AS was structured as the first year of A level teaching and now that isn’t necessarily the case.

I took an AS in French over 2 years and went to half of the a level classes - the structure at that time was most of the A level language elements plus a literature piece on one play, whereas my class mates did a lot more literature in the lessons I didn’t attend.

DS is in Y13 currently. He started with 4 A levels including FM. His friend started with 4 not including FM. She ‘reduced’ one of her four to an AS and took it last summer. DS decided at the beginning of Y13 to ‘reduce’ one of his to an AS and is taking it now. He had covered the whole AS syllabus in Y12. A poster earlier on the thread seemed to imply that this can’t be done, but in our experience yes it can. Both subjects - chemistry for the friend and computer science for DS - had the AS element of the course taught in Y12 and they both switched to taking the AS rather than the full A level rather late in the day but without any issues.

Interesting, at my DD's school they all start with 4 and then do one at AS, unless you're doing FM which continues to Y13 - in fact the FM people do Maths in Y12 and FM in Y13.

She's applied to other 6th forms (all state) and most of them were open to 4 as long as you have decent grades. DD really isn't sure what she wants to do so at the moment is doing Maths, a language, an essay subject and a science. It's quite random but I assume she'll work out which one she likes least when she starts. The advantage of 4 for her is getting to do more subjects.

At DD's school almost everyone did four dropping to three (apart from US bound children and FM). It is a selective school with some of the best results in the country, and the best university destinations. So for an able student I think this might be a good path.

For a less able student, maybe just picking three is good in the sense that it might be better to put their energies into what they definitely going to take exams in - but it's often the case that subjects at A Level are a bit different from how they were at GCSE. And some students will be doing subjects that they have not studied at GCSE (politics, sociology, psychology, economics etc) and to me it makes sense to have some slack in the system so if a child has picked something that turned out not to be as enjoyable/interesting as they thought it would be they're not disadvantaged by dropping it.

They did also do a number of short non-examined courses in all kinds of things in the lower sixth. I think DD did one in how to solve cryptic crosswords (which is now her passion) and another in poisons in literature, as well as other things. It's obviously possible to add breadth and stretch over and above the curriculum but that also takes time and money which might be in short supply in some schools.

For able students who are aiming at the most competitive universities, they are best served by focusing on supercurriculars rather than extracurriculars.

Currently only around 5% of A level students take four subjects in one sitting; around half of these are taking Further Maths as the fourth subject. There will be some taking Maths at the end if Y12 and then Further Maths at the end of Y13 and, whilst that confuses the picture a little, the bottom line is around 95% take three A levels in one sitting.

Probably many academically able students could cope with more than the workload of 3 A levels but other ways to use that underutilised capacity include Core Maths (for those not studying Maths A level), an EPQ, or focusing on activities outside academic study.

None of the local state schools or colleges (all comp) in my area go down the 'try four and drop to three' (with the exception of Further Maths) and I am not sure, since the move away from AS levels, that it makes sense. It introduces huge flux and inefficiencies; better to help students in Y11 make more informed decisions, surely, and look to other ways to add 'stretch' where that is appropriate?

My son is doing 3 A levels which includes FM and has just firmed Warwick for MORSE so they do not care about 4 a levels it's all about the maths/FM.

DD did four (not FM) because she really wanted to do all four subjects. She understood the AAA better than BBBB thing and was prepared to drop one if necessary. She didn’t, but did prioritise three out of the four during revision time. It’s great if they’re interested and can keep on top of things. She had plenty of time for hobbies and a social life. There’s no point in narrowing your horizons just because it makes life easier imo. (As long as the grades they need for where they want to go will be possible of course.)

I missed @Skybluepinky's post but it is definitely nonsense.

DD did three and had offers from every university she applied for (including an Oxbridge offer). She also has a number of friends at Oxbridge, Durham, Edinburgh etc and they nearly all did three too.

@Skybluepinky it’s untrue that “top universities” want 4 A levels. My DC had offers from Oxford, Imperial and Durham among others — with Maths, Further Maths and Physics.

Having said that, I think it’s good advice to start with four and see how it goes. It’s possible to drop the fourth if need be. My DC started off with a fourth, didn’t enjoy it and found the workload heavy, so dropped it.

Lots of good advice above. Things I'd talk to DC about...

How capable are they academically? AAA is a much better outcome than BBBB.

Are they likely to be applying for Maths, Engineering, Economics or Computer Science at a competitive university? Further Maths may be helpful and/or essential for some courses and entrance tests. Further Maths can have a high drop-out rate - unless you really love maths it's tough going and might be better started as a fourth.

What subjects are they considering? 4x essay subjects is likely to be heavy going. Maths/FM/Physics have a fair amount of overlap. Are they choosing subjects with a coursework element?

How committed are they to working consistently all the way through Y12 and Y13? They need to keep on top of a heavy workload - if they get behind it's very difficult to catch up.

Are they likely to do any new subjects - Economics, Philosophy, Sociology etc? Sometimes it's not a bad idea to test them out by doing four to start with but with the plan to drop one.

How much do the do outside of school? Sport commitments, part time job, DofE, other hobbies? Completely possible to do it all but usually something has to give in Y13.

While that may be true, it is AFAIK not the case that any unis insist on four A levels. Yes, many students taking FM will have four (tho by no means all) but I know a number of YP who have gone to top unis in recent years and none of them (apart as noted from some taking FM) have had four A levels. If you are studying history (random example) there is no benefit to having also taken A levels in Eng lit, sociology and German. And if others on your course have, it’s no benefit to them really (except the general one of widening interest and general study for its own sake - which for sure I am in favour of, but let's be pragmatic here).

Granted my experience is 20+ years old but I did 4 A Levels and still had a feee period. I think that issue is going to be school dependent. I did 2x languages so felt like one was consolidating the learning in the other (both Romance languages so not strikingly different), plus English lit and history. I preferred history to English but was more likely to get an A in English so kept going with it past AS level for the grade and did history for the enjoyment of the subject.

Personally, were I in charge of education in this country I would probably opt for a 6th form option somewhere between 3 A levels and the IB. I agree 3 A levels is very narrow, especially for a 16 year old who isn't sure what direction they want to go in next but I think the IB is too far the other way and all the young people I know who have done it found it very stressful.
However, we have to work within the current system and I would agree with the majority that unless the 4th is FM or the DC is very bright I would be wary of attempting 4 A levels. As others have said, the workload is high and there is no real advantage to having more than 3 A levels in terms of University admissions, barring a few specific courses where FM is a big plus.
I remember a thread some time ago where someone made a claim along the lines of "most students at Cambridge have 5 A levels". This was well and truly debunked during the thread using easily accessible data in the public domain.
I know a lot of STEM graduates through work and socially as DH and I both work in (different) STEM fields. The vast majority have 3 good A levels. I can't think of anyone I know who has struggled because they didn't have 4 A levels. My DC are at University currently and have friends studying a wide range of subjects at a wide range of institutions and again, the vast majority have 3 A levels. That has been the norm for as long as I can remember and I am getting on a bit! "Only" having 3 A levels is very unlikely to limit a young person's future options but failing to reach their potential in terms of grades may well do so.
I think some posters are a bit out of date, referring to AS levels. I know it's different in Wales but in England AS and A levels were "decoupled" some years ago. It is no longer the case that the AS syllabus is simply the first year of the A level. If you drop an A level course at the end of year 12 now of course you'll have the knowledge you've gained which may well be useful but there won't be a qualification to show for it like there used to be.
Trying 4 to see which you like best is not a bad idea but I think the decision about whether to drop one and if so which one probably needs to be made by Christmas in year 12 at the latest. If you fall behind in a subject it can be quite hard to catch up, and remember there are only 2 real teaching terms in Year 13. If doing 4 impacts on performance in the other 3 you want to give yourself a reasonable time to correct that. My youngest DC wanted to start 4 but in the end it didn't happen due to timetabling constraints. But had it gone ahead we had an agreement between him, his teachers and DH and I that if it was not going absolutely according to plan he would drop the 4th at the end of the first term, or sooner if he was struggling. A number of his friends started 4 and I think only one actually finished them all (excluding those who did FM). They are all very bright boys who went on to do highly regarded courses at the sort of University MN approves of so very able pupils - don't underestimate the work needed to get high grades in 3 A levels. So I would advise your DC to try 4 if they are really unsure but be ready and willing to drop one quickly if they are not confident they can reach their potential in all 4 once they are actually doing it.

Same for me, 30 years ago though.

Maths, chemistry and physics, plus English lit. I also took English lit because I loved it and wasn’t ready to give it up yet. It also kept me sane amidst all the maths/science - well, it was a lovely balance anyway.

As it turned out, it was hugely fortunate I had done it, because I headed for natural sciences but instead of eventually specialising in chemistry, as had been my plan, I took up with geology, which is a heavily essay based subject (at least it was at my uni). The essay writing skills I got from eng lit absolutely saved my bacon and helped hugely for my geology essays. I would never have learnt to write such concise well formed essays otherwise.

I had a lot less free time than some of my friends but I found a lot of the maths / chemistry a lot easier than they did so it all worked out.

DD also went to an independent school and they all started four and almost all dropped to three for the final year. Those who didn't were almost all applying to US universities or doing Further Maths.

I don't understand the point of doing one IB course and three A Levels, apart from if there is something you want to study for fun, and you could just do an A Level in it anyway if you wanted to. Isn't the whole point of IB that you have to do a broader range of subjects?

I did five A Levels back in the dark ages. DD did three and I think she had a bigger workload than I did. Mine were final exam only (and I like exams) and hers had coursework for two of the subjects which was extremely time-consuming.

Ds is at an independent and they ask them to do 4 with one an IB. It's because they consider it to provide a broader experience. I'm not actually sure if they can drop the IB if they wish- I need to check. Usually it seems the IB they do is a language if they are not doing a language as one of their 3 A-levels.

My DDs school policy is most pupils to start on 4 for year 12 and have the flexibility to drop one after year 12.
Not sure I entirely agree with this but I guess it gives options if someone doesn’t like a subject or isn’t doing as well as expected.
If most students at the school do 3 I would just do 3, universities prefer 3 As than 4 B/Cs.
Further maths is the exception, lots do this as a 4th A level.

Depends which unis he will be applying to, as often top unis attract students with 4 A’Levels with A* predictions and they will have also chosen to study another one in their own time (often maths and economics).

As PPs have posted, many sixth forms will only allow four if one is FM (and not always require it then - you could do maths, FM and one other in DS2's year at his school).

Most students I know who started with four dropped one, often before the end of the first term. I guess there is an advantage to that if you are in two minds about a subject – especially if it is something like psych which is usually a new subject at A level and sounds exciting (but isn't) – hence has a high dropout rate. A lot easier to drop one in the first term than switch to another subject.

Again, if uni is the plan, there is no gain from four A levels as no uni requires it and you are probably just going to spread yourself too thin.

PPs saying they did four or six – when was this? A levels were reformed several years ago. My diligent DD took three and found it a lot of work. I myself took three actually back in the darl ages and again, that was plenty of work.

What are the four @TomorrowMoreWorsts? Does DS want to take them all or is the school mandating it? If the latter, how soon can he drop one?

Is he planning to stay at the same school, or does he have an offer to study 4? DS1 did 4 - Maths, FM, Physics and Philosophy, and doing the first 3 together, with a 4th that is a bit different, seems to be quite common - he got lots of offers. He chose a school 6th form (not his previous secondary school which doesn't have a 6th form) where everyone normally starts 4 subjects in year 12 but most drop one at the end of year 12, when they have to get at least a D in mocks to continue a subject. FM students are expected to continue, assuming they get the grades, and his group took the Maths A level near the end of year 12, with double lesson/study time allocated, and began studying FM at the end of that year. I don't know how many students there actually carry on with all 4 subjects, outside FM - there were only 12 students in his group doing Maths and FM that way (lots more A level Maths students who weren't signed up for FM and studied over the 2 years).

I would think that if he's getting offers and school predictions and references support his application, starting 4 is quite useful and keeps options open for a while, as long as he is up for the effort. At the end of year 12, if not before, students have plenty of time to decide about work levels, subjects etc, and to drop a subject, before making university applications and decisions in year 13.

I did five, it was fine.

I did 6 AS and 4 A levels.

It depends what you want to do.

I realised when choosing my uni courses that I needed maths. Hence the extra.

Yr 1 - AS English language, Economics, Art, Biology, Critical thinking
Yr 2 - A level Art, Biology, Economics, English and started AS Maths

It’s a lot of work. Less stressful than doing 13 GCSE with 3 arts.

IB costs a lot more to deliver.

I used to work at a school that offered it. You need a lot more teaching time than three a levels so funding is an issue. The government used to have an additional grant for the costs of running the IB but that went I think last year.

from an individual teacher point of view it’s no harder to teach each element than a level in the subject. The coursework is a bloody nuisance though as you are constantly chasing students and it takes up so much time.

@ACIGC I think the IB is great but for me it actually goes a bit too far in the other direction! (IB pupils always sounds really stressed out with six subjects, coursework in each subject plus TOK etc. on top.) I would really like a middle ground with some specialisation, but also breadth, and no extras required. But I don't think there is the appetite for it.