Daughter being excluded from prom

The damage to school toilets in primary is hard to believe and yet my colleagues and I witness it on a weekly basis. Toilet paper stuffed in sinks and taps left to run, jumpers and even a pair of shoes in urinals/toilets, toilet seats ripped off, even a couple of doors. Then of course there’s been bullying and fights with children walking out of class to meet with others. Or children using the toilets with others climbing up on the loo next door to look at them.

Accessing toilets is a huge issue, which unless you work in a school you wouldn’t quite believe. I certainly didn’t until I started working in a school.

‘wilful ignorance coupled with the rules don’t apply to me entitlement cause the anxiety and MH issues’

Not the case, for mental health nor neurodiversity.

I don't think you understand what psychotic means

As a member of primary school staff who gives up evenings and even weekends, doing it unpaid, for the year 6s end of year parties/prom etc, I’d be more than happy if the school would step back from it all and parents took it all on.

Exactly, @Warmlight1and that’s why good things stop. No prom, no parties, kids stuck in their rooms. We bemoan the lack of social interaction. Well done.

Also, if you think children have not been disallowed at your children’s school you are either very lucky in your catchment or you just don’t know about it.

It’s language like “pissed off” that shows what you think. Do you really think teachers made this rule because they are “pissed off”? They are concerned this child can’t be trusted. Do you think the teachers are high fiving each other in the staff room as a “gotcha”? You seem to really believe the teachers are sitting round having vindictive ‘who can we get’ meetings. You say teachers have the “privilege” of who to invite - no they follow the rules. Rules are in place to stop any emotional decisions- that’s what rules are for, that’s why we have rules. You seem to want everyone or no one. It’s going to be no one so we cancel the prom. Result!

' She's refusing to behave herself' OP stated She's not on a behaviour plan and is progressing well.
A professional teaching role is not about organising a social event and then deciding you can exclude some kids as a final ' gotcha' because it's voluntary and you are pissed off with them. That's a kind of burn out thing which heads have got a responsibility to have oversight of. Not create policies to enable.
I greatly appreciate all the extra work my kids school put into discos but they've never started disallowing pupils in that manner and I'd strongly object and rather they didn't do the disco.

I actually think if it's come to that the school is acknowledging it has let go of it's responsibilities and should have enough insight not to undertake it. If it's voluntary, and not doing it inclusively is how teachers have to be persuaded then they should acknowledge it's work that isn't funded and just not do it. That way there's more energy for classroom.
If individuals want the privilege of deciding who to invite- they can do that in their own time in their own homes with their own parties.

@Warmlight1 listen to yourself “teachers have no business organising a party”. The utter bastards, organising a party for children, in their own time, often involving their own money. Bastards.
They can only organise a party if they do it the way I WANT! Teachers after teacher has been on here saying, wondering out of class is a safety issue, in a non school location it’s a massive safety issue. This child was considered for a PRU - how much of a safety issue do you want?
Then when there is a safety issue teachers are castigated for not taking enough care.
Run your own bloody prom, in your own house. Oh no can’t do that as teenage parties are notorious for going wrong.

@PlayingDevilsAdvocateisinteresting this is mad.
for anything other than something that would cause them to be prosecuted for, and to be found guilty by a jury, in the wider world, outside of a school's doors and walls. In my view if a child does something like that they should, in fact, be prosecuted whether I school or not. Prom is staffed voluntarily and is in a public arena in many cases (local hotel or function room). Staff can’t be asked to supervise children who might engage in risky behaviour or damage, and neither can the hotels be expected to allow it. I worked in a school once where some students got drunk at prom (sixth form, so drinking was legal) then set off fire extinguishers and trashed the place. The school were banned from booking the place again and I never volunteered for another prom while I worked there.
Now, you may say OPs DD doesn’t sound like that but remember we don’t know what the ‘reminders’ were for - could well be behavioural - and people have said on the thread many times that going to the toilet at the wrong time is often the behaviour system code for ‘wanders out of class without permission and disappears for ages’. That would be a safeguarding issue in a public place.

In general.professiinals aren't stupid but I think it depends on levels of experience. Teachers know what is causing a problem in their class they don't know everything outside of that and in fairness there's no reason they would there's only so much one person can do.
The issue it they've no business organising a party then excluding some pupils unless actual.safety is at risk. No matter how much they feel like doing it.

But haven't you heard? Preventing kids from going to prom because they refuse to behave themselves is "psychotic" now! 🙄

Couldn't agree more with you, I feel desperately sorry for teachers who have to deal with this nonsense.

This is why good things stop. Prom is not an entitlement, it’s not part of education, it’s an extra event that teaches put on out of the goodness of their hearts. They don’t have to do it.
People insist their badly behaved child has to go, it becomes too much effort and it stops for everyone. This thread is teacher burnout in action, not only are there no thankyous, not a smidge of gratitude, just a great big dollop of ‘I want’ entitlement.
The wilful ignorance of - they only want to go to the toilet - no they bloody don’t. Students arrange to meet at certain times, they trash the toilet, threaten students in other classes. These visit are used to bully other children - staring into classes. The list goes on.
The wilful ignorance coupled with the rules don’t apply to me entitlement cause the anxiety and MH issues. When the real world hits entitlement you have a massive cognitive dissonance that causes MH issues.
Firm but loving discipline in child rearing has been found by psychologists to be the parenting and teaching model that has the highest success rates. Discipline does not mean beating children with a stick it means clear, safe guidelines that are adhered to.

I taught for 35 years. I tended to give the benefit of the doubt to kids I knew weren’t likely to cause damage and let them go, even though it got me in trouble a few times. I have never heard, in all that time, of a senior child wetting themselves or bleeding through he to a period issue. I had heavy periods myself and school definitely didn’t allow in lesson wandering in the 70s/80s and I never bled through either. I’m not saying it never happens - I just think it’s not common and is probably connected to a freak flooding situation which couldn’t have been prevented.
When I started teaching (late 80s) we had a reasonable expectation that all but the most difficult pupils would only ask if they needed to go and would go and come back without damaging anything/one while they were out. Sadly that’s no longer the case.

It's an assumption the solution is discipline. I find those who have never experienced a family member with any sort of Mental health issues often don't really believe in it. If it's not a lived experienced it's hard to convey how that plays out. There may just be gaps in experience.
Notwithstanding that Id agree generally with strong routines and boundaries. Just don't think that mixing that up with a prom is correct. The whole thing of proms has been adopted from America relatively recently. Rules and boundaries have always been in place. Other than that the event needs to be safe, I don't think the two things should be connected. Offering a social opportunity is likely to raise anxieties in the more anxious. To withdraw it like this seems kind of psychotic.

If parents don't discipline their children others will better the school then a judge which is what will happen when parents keep saying kids can't help their behaviour because nd and mh problems

But wondering around areas she's not allowed to could.

"Improvement" is not necessarily "good enough". A vast amount of bad behaviour can occur before a behaviour plan and a prom is discretionary and run on a voluntary basis by staff. Sorry but the DD sounds like she has issues but also sounds like at times she might be a pain in the arse. Teachers are under no obligation to have kids like that at an event they're running voluntarily.

She's not on a behaviour plan currently? So doing relatively well?
Her going to the toilet is not going to disrupt a prom.
Personally think the whole thing of social events like this needs to be divorced from sanctions.They are completely separate. YP do need to socialise and they need to be included by adults with their peers especially at that age.

Amen

And "reminders" which isn't about forgetting things but behaviour sanctions. Which the OP has been really vague about in specifying what they were for.

Also the "going to the toilet" will be without permission and she would have a toilet pass if she needed to go more often. So it's most likely, as others have said ad infinitum, that she's been leaving classes without permission on a frequent basis using the toilet as an excuse which could be a danger to herself and others and disruptive to other kids.

Have you read the OP?

The OP is talking about uniform and going to the toilet. Also over a year ago.
"However she has made significant improvement, not on any behaviour plan, is revising hard and should pass GCSEs and do her chosen subjects in college."

Well I was completely with you until you suggested such people should be in positions of power in society generally- In the last bit you've just described the Taliban!
We need sensible people in political and judicial positions. If they can't exercise proportionate and appropriate responses with one child - a girl- we don't want them in positions which impact all the children and adults. Strength isn't ' Archetypal Victorian dads.'

OP has not explained why her daughter wants to go to the prom. Why?
She doesn't like school. She doesn't want to go to school. She doesn't go to school very often. She doesn't have many friends. She has friendship issues. She is leaving school within the next month or so. It is likely that she will then cease all contact with her peers.
Why does she want to socialise with these people that she avoids seeing on a daily basis and doesn't particularly like? Why?
Next question that won't be answered: what is she planning on studying at college?
(Unlike schools, colleges do chuck disruptive kids out)

Many nd people would find loud music, semi dark, flashing lights, people squashed together and crowded rooms very overwhelming.
Would the young person actually enjoy the prom or would it cause a massive meltdown?

I work in further education and I am heartily sick of parents & young people who use any form of MH, ND etc an excuse for poor behaviour, attendance, work.
Parents fail to see how far teachers have bent over backwards to give the young person chance and adjustment. Way more than any other student.
This also isn't just about the young person, it's the 100 other young people who have met the requirements.

It's one night. Get over it and move on. It's not going to scar them for life.

The OP / their daughter is in for a massive shock going into college because any support in school will vanish unless they have a high needs EHCP.

However, I think that the scariest part in all of this, is that it is those very people who have been standing in loco parentis of our children, and who should care about both the physical, and the mental health, of their young charges, who are also the the very ones deciding how harsh a punishment should be for any minor offence

If the OPs child was threatened with the PRU, the offences won't be minor.

Those people standing in loco parentis give up their free time to allow prom to happen. I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to say no to giving up their time for a child who has ruined the education experience of others. I have refused to attend prom when a child who verbally abused me all year was allowed to go.

@PlayingDevilsAdvocateisinteresting "Absolutely! I don't think that any child would deserve having their one chance throughout all of their school years to go to the school prom, taken away from them"

She's going to college next year. It's highly likely they will have a prom too or at least an event to mark the end of school. But if her behaviour doesn't improve, it's highly likely she'll be excluded from that too.

Perhaps the OP could be preparing her for the college experience rather than dwelling on all of this, or, as is apparently the case, keeping her child at home?