Daughter being excluded from prom

kids should not be socially excluded as a sanction. @Warmlight1

Just to clarify: when you say “kids”, do you mean all kids, including those who are bullies, criminally responsible, a threat to others, a major disruption to the school, and so on?

No @Warmlight1. It’s the school(s) deciding to offer an extra which will be staffed completely free by teachers and other school employees and deciding that they will do this as a reward for students who meet certain criteria. That isn’t inappropriate. It’s completely reasonable - especially when the criteria are open and transparent and well known by the student body.

It's your opinion @Warmlight1 that it's inappropriate. And I disagree it's "social exclusion".

Schools do all of these things which take kids away from social situations as behavioural punishments:

• Isolation within school time.
• Removal of invitation to school trips.
• Detention at lunchtime or after school meaning less time with friends.

Would you remove all of these as consequences? I see prom as discretionary which others have too i.e. it's a positive consequence given only to children with the behaviours they have wanted to encourage. It's not part of the school day and specifically for prom there will be nothing the school can do after that point to sanction the child as they will have left the school. So they would want to be sure that time spent, staffed by employees giving up their time is enjoyable for all.

Instead the op is keeping their child at home for reasons only themselves know. Presumably because of this debacle. Which is presumably increasing social isolation. Odd.

So what negative consequences would you sanction? And which positive consequences are ok to only give to children who behave well?

So it's not about any positive benefit for that child in that relationship. Well that's honest.
I can only reiterate- kids should not be socially excluded as a sanction. The ones who that happens to are the ones who need the inclusion most. You can quite me if you need to quote anyone.
There are plenty of ways of acknowledging good behaviour without straying into cruelty.
What you have described is schools deciding to utilise the prom inappropriately.

Only, I'm afraid, because you keep pushing for it to be so. As I've pointed out a few times, the OP has not asked for any changes to how behavioural consequences have been applied to this child before this moment, or, if she has, she's oddly chosen not to share them.

I'm afraid, you're very much making this thread about you and your situation. Perhaps it might be better to start another?

the discussion has moved on to schools not meeting needs long before prom @Leftrightmiddle

Do you mean school in general, or the specific school that OP’s daughter attends?
I’ve read through all of OP’s posts carefully, and she hasn’t complained about anything regarding the school other than the prom exclusion.

@Leftrightmiddle you have just decided that it’s due to forgetting items. OP said ‘reminders’. On a behaviour chart that’s more likely to be reminders abput repeated poor behaviour. Lots of posters have said this and asked the OP to clarify. She hasn’t, so I’m happy to conclude it’s not forgetting her pen. It’s also not going to the toilet. It’s going out of the classroom without permission and likely wandering about which as has been pointed out repeatedly would be a safeguarding issue at an event in a public place. Staff have to know where she is without constant checking.

Oh for god sake - the discussion has moved on to schools not meeting needs long before prom

Educaton means prom?

And yet schools regularly say they can meet the pupils needs in mainstream and block the requests for alternative provision by saying they can meet needs.

I do understand teachers/schools are pressured to agree needs can be met by the LA but this isn't helping the pupil, the family or the teachers

Until honest conversations can be had about mainstream not meeting needs - it continues to be a problem for parents, pupils and teachers

Parents are asking because they know that mainstream isn't working and are being told that the school can meet needs which it clearly can't

There are no winners here

Education is meant to be a right for every child too..
And yet so many children aren't getting an education. So now education is for the privileged people who don't have additional needs

Parents aren't asking for adjustments to make your life difficult, they are asking for anything that may make life slightly more bearable. They are asking for understanding

I'm asking for their understanding.

Do you not agree that those demands aren't possible in a mainstream school? They are impossible to provide in almost all cases. Surely parents must know that, so why ask?

Absolutely it's a system issue.

However while the system is as it is, prom is used as it is. As a teacher I completely agree with poor behaviour excluding children from prom. Prom is a privilege, not a right.

@anonymoususer9876

I don't disagree with your comment

Tax payers won't want to fund it but the costs will be higher long term due to needs not being met in education
It's just kicking the can down the road

Thanks for replying. I can see from reading further that your experience is one of a parent whose child has struggled with mainstream.

You’re right in that one teacher cannot support 30 pupils, especially if half of them are SEN. There’s also pupil premium children, looked after children, ones with physical/medical impairment to support too. Much smaller class sizes, investment in expanding school buildings to enable that, extra support staff and a changed curriculum is what is needed and is what many staff want too (the reduction in stress would help with retainment).

But that’s not a vote winner as taxpayers just won’t fund it. I can think of no political party that will endorse it.

Whilst also working in school, I’m a parent of a SEN child who went through EBSA in secondary and bullying in primary, so I see both sides of the coin. [In fact, quite a number of staff have SEN children or SEN themselves so do understand.] Working in a school is an eye opener on how much pressure there is on staff - so yes, I can see by the time prom comes around and staff are asked to give up their time for it, many will just want an enjoyable fun event rather than a stressful one. And so they use behaviour assessment to do that, which may be a blunt instrument for some.

Last year, I had to supervise two lads who were both SEN and fixated on each other - friends occasionally but more often than not they would fall out and fight. It was an exhausting evening, at the end of an extremely stressful term and I’m not sure how long I can keep giving of myself to continually do this. (One parent did offer to supervise their lad but as the parent was SEN and fixated on the other child this would be a recipe for disaster so we politely declined.)

I feel I’m waffling now, but hopefully you get the gist.

Again a system issue if schools can not meet needs
30 children in a class isn't working for anyone.
Those who can't cope, the strain on the staff, and the other pupils who education if impacted.

The system needs to change.

Parents aren't asking for adjustments to make your life difficult, they are asking for anything that may make life slightly more bearable. They are asking for understanding

I understand you don't have the time or energy or resources you need to ensure every child gets an appropriate education
But that's because the system is failing

Equally when parents say schools are doing nothing, teachers come back and say "what more can one human in a class of 30 children realistically do?". That isn't the fault of the child, but neither is it the fault of the school. In SOME circumstances, the child and parents use their SEN to excuse any poor behaviour. SOME parents expect unreasonable things from a mainstream secondary with responsibility for staff workload. Some of the things I've been asked for:

• check in every period with a child in my tutor group
• provide 1:1 tuition instead of mainstream classroom
• write all the notes into a child's book before the lesson
• let a child walk around school when they are struggling
• daily phonecall to parents re behaviour

None of these are at all reasonable yet parents will be out there slagging me off for not "meeting their child's needs".

Absolutely disgusting - I hope you never have to deal with suicide risks

Have a bit of empathy and understanding

And if you look back you will see this was in response to a comment and not directly related to a single event such as a Prom

I agree, Walkden, but it's all part of the hyperbole some trot out when anyone dares to suggest their child should face consequences

As for the decently behaving majority possibly getting their prom cancelled, why would such parents care? If their precious doesn't get to go the rest can clearly go hang, and that'll be the school's fault too

@Lemonthyme

Mumsnet is extremely hard.

If you comment without personal examples

• your told you know nothing about schools and sen

In this thread I have seen comments saying schools are making too many adjustments for SEN. when in reality not nearly enough is being done.

If you use personal examples to explain why SEN pupils are getting failed - your told your making the thread about your own situation 🤨

I recon OP won't be back with clarification as so many assumptions made against them

I think @Leftrightmiddle for understandable reasons you're making some big assumptions. There's some interesting research about "sensemaking" and it's all about the biases and assumptions we make to interpret the world.

For you, right now, all of this is being interpreted through the lens of your experience.

But back to the OP, she has said about toilet trips (which would be when not permitted) and "reminders" which are often behavioural. It does not mean that the school has been remiss in raising any of these. And the fact the OP has waited till now to challenge them suggests that it was seen by her as reasonable earlier.

I empathise with your difficult situation, but it's not what the OP has been through and I think you're projecting that onto the thread. Not intentionally, not maliciously but just because you're justifiably upset. Read how many times you typed "my child". This isn't your child.

I'm not equating anything. I'm explaining in response to others how schools are failing to properly support young people with SEN.
I brought up trauma in response to someone comment

I don't think stopping prom due to forgetting items, going to the toilet and uniform is appropriate based on the information from OP

Obviously, we all only have OP version of events and our own personal experiences to make judgements and based on that I don't feel stopping the young person attending prom was right.

My child won't get to go to prom because they are unable to go to school. They however, would have liked to go to have the opportunities their siblings and peers have.
School made them incredibly ill, but if they had managed to continue masking and going this not only would have continued to make them ill -
But had they struggled and overcome things their peers hadn't had to just to get into school each day. It would have really not been fair to have them prevented to go to prom. Two reasons one of the motivational factors of dragging themselves through such an uncomfortable and inappropriate environment for them would have been prom. The second is all the years of pain they endured just to be able to do things like prom with peers would be for nothing

My child didn't have behaviour issues at school but the were at a school that sanctioned not getting over a certain % on homework questions with detention.
My child was in detention weekly not because of behaviour but because the homework was too hard for them that they were never able to reach the target. The teacher admitted they had not the prior learning to be able to cope but that they wouldn't be able to teach things the pupil should have already understood.
Yes I understand that this sanction was to make sure pupils did their homework. But no I do not agree a blanket approach is appropriate when the punishment isn't about not doing the homework it's about ability to hit a target. A target which is the same for pupils with SEN as pupils who can get 100% with their eyes closed.

They also got extra kick put names up of those in detention up on a board for all to see.

I'm not.

But what you've been equating throughout this thread is not getting a perk, i.e. an invite to a prom is in some way traumatic.

Obviously traumatic experiences can happen at school but they're rare and much more severe than not being invited to a party. I'm sure you'd be pretty appalled if someone suggested to you that's why your child is exhibited the symptoms they are and I hope they get the support they need.

Sometimes though when our child is hurting, it turns us into tiger mum's and when we're in that reactive space, everything is seen as a threat.

In this case, while the child has ND issues, they also seem like they've been a bit of a shit at times. ND doesn't automatically make you into a nice person, nor a well behaved one. Nor does it completely exempt you from life's consequences.

You do realise that people can have sympathy for your situation with your child without giving carte blanche to all disruptive behaviour right? Nuance is permitted.

Massively benefits the other kids. They can see there is a big consequence for being a dick for 5 years. Also benefits staff who see that SLT are supportive of behaviour and won't let poor behaviour into prom.

I didn't say that I said many children are left with trauma from school. From the day to day environment

In addition we are picking up the prices of the trauma my child suffered in school. A child who can not go near a school building without a panic attack. So as someone who is living this reality do not dismiss our experience