Page 6 | Should I push my CAT4 138 DD to SPGS open day?

swdd · 2026-03-29T11:21:55+00:00

My DD is in Year 5 at an independent school, with a CAT4 score of 138 (same Year 4 and Year 5). She really loves free play, doing her own projects, and is also into chess and video games. She’s more into brain stimulation stuff and I’ve been working with her on advanced competition maths. However, she’s quite laid-back and not naturally self-motivated. Although she has achieved Grade 8 distinction in piano, she never practises voluntarily. Her English score is good, but not very strong largely because she isn’t an avid reader, and she lacks big interest in humanities subjects. I don't think she fits the personality of typical St Paul's Girls at 11+. (I guess anything but laidback）Although given her strong logical reasoning skills, she stands a good chance of getting into SPGS if we applied. Also, she’s not at all sporty, and SPGS is extremely strong in humanities – both are definite weak areas for her. Obviously, SPGS is much more expensive than our current school, and as a modest family it would be further financial stretch. That said, we still could sit her for SPGS, partly to test her ability, and I’ve considered 16+ entry to SPGS further down the line, as she can choose a STEM-focused Sixth Form without too worrying about the humanities. And who knows, she might be more motivated in 5 years! But my DD is completely against it. She’s being rebellious because everyone around her raves about SPGS, and she prefers a more chilled environment, partly influenced by my concerns about the pressure there. She would not even go for the open day. My question is: should I persuade her to at least go to the SPGS open day, or should I just drop the idea altogether?

Original poster

swdd · 31/03/2026 09:33

And now you’re already stitching up ideas for y12 and y13?
You’re raising a human being. Did it occur to you that age 16 your dc will know exactly what she wants to do without your six years of planning?
@NobodysChildNow

Honestly, you are confusing strategic planning with coercive execution. They aren't the same thing at all.

Think about it: every single aspect of school is planned. Do you really believe that because a school follows a curriculum and sets targets, the children are being treated 'inhumanely'? Of course not. School is project-based, it has objectives, and it requires a roadmap. Did you not plan your own child’s school enrollment, or was that just done on a total whim?

I am discussing long-term considerations for when my daughter is 15-16. How on earth is that 'damaging' her now? She isn't even aware of these discussions! Once again, you’re oversimplifying a very complex reality. My current decisions are based entirely on my deep understanding of her personality and where I see her going. By the time she’s 15, the plan can—and almost certainly will—evolve, and her own voice will carry much more weight. But you can’t just wait until the last minute to make a snap decision with absolutely no foundation to stand on.

Parents who proactively create opportunities for their children are rare; most just 'outsource' it all to the school and hope for the best. It’s unfair to criticise parents who think deeply about their child's future—actually, I think that kind of dedication should be encouraged！

OP posts:

Original poster

swdd · 31/03/2026 09:21

I pity your dc though - sounds like you’ve sucked the fun out of piano (she never wants to practice voluntarily? At grade 8? What a crying shame! At grade 8 I adored my instrument, I lived for my ensemble groups and the Proms with my dad each year. I can’t imagine getting to that level of expertise in an instrument without having an all-consuming passion for making music. What an absolute shame.) @NobodysChildNow

My DD is truly the happiest, freest child I have ever seen. Frankly, I think you are oversimplifying the situation and using your own adult biases to make some very flawed assumptions about children. She absolutely loves the piano; she adores composing her own music, playing her own pieces, and she sings spontaneously every single day. However, she will not voluntarily practice anything—whether it’s piano, reading, or math challenges. She loves school, yet she still won’t voluntarily get out of bed to go there. We’ve always raised her with a very relaxed approach, which is precisely why she lives the closest to the school gates yet is the one who is constantly late!

If you 'pity' my child for her 'involuntary' piano practice, shouldn't you also pity her for having to go to school every day? While many young adults—and a rare few children—might be entirely self-motivated, most require a nudge. Otherwise, what is the point of being a parent? I even tested the 'total autonomy' theory once: I asked her to write her own schedule for the day, and she allocated more than half the time to playing Roblox video games, with the remainder filled with random doodling, lego, eating and watching youtube and outdoor games. Can you truly imagine letting a child live a purely 'voluntary' life every day?

In family we immerse her in music; we talk about piano constantly and take her to numerous world-class performances (we are seeing Argerich in a few days). We did try a professional piano trial lesson once when she was tiny, but she literally jumped off the stool mid-way through, so we decided not to push it then. In fact, we haven't spent a penny on professional lessons; we’ve taught her entirely ourselves. We never originally intended for her to do exams, but we eventually realized that having a small, tangible goal would be beneficial for a child as laid-back as she is. We meticulously select pieces for each grade that are within her reach and that she actually enjoys. With an hour of practice a day, Grade 8 really isn't that daunting. Your idea of an 'all-consuming passion' as the only valid reason to play simply doesn't apply here. You are typifying the mistake of projecting your own limited life experiences onto others—which is, sadly, all too common on MN.

Having said that, I can appreciate your concerns, which is why we are constantly monitoring her to ensure she doesn’t burn out. Our ultimate goal is for her to enjoy the piano at a high level for her entire life, much like her mother does, while also using the instrument as a tool to help her develop a sense of self-discipline. There is no one-size-fits-all answer here; it requires parents—acting as both music teachers and educators—to constantly navigate and explore what works for their specific child.

OP posts:

HighRopes · 31/03/2026 08:44

What I mean by UK being not used to maths or sciences competitions - is as I said. UK does not do much - there are only few available. UKMT is the only country wide challenge that middle school kids can do. Most schools don't teach or practice that sort of creative fun maths in any event. Hence - UK teams never do well in the international competitions.
Same goes for other sciences, programming, robotics. Non-existent in middle school, limited in upper school.

If this is your definition of ‘challenge’ and ‘greater depth’ then I can see why you would like more of it. When I say it, I mean lessons that go off on interesting tangents (like the creative maths you mention), reading week homework that points to non-syllabus but fascinating podcasts, teachers spending their time to speak to school societies on their areas of interest and (crucially) attending the talks the girls give and really engaging, the opportunity to set up a team or take part in a competition if the girls want to do so enough to be the driving force.

I don’t value external competitions much at all, and I haven’t seen any value (for the girls) from the joint stuff with the boys school. But that’s just me, and its why this thread is valuable. If you want a more traditional approach, a bit more directed, a bit more competitive, then SPGS probably isn’t the right place. In the same way as it’s not the right place if you want your child to be chivvied into doing every piece of homework well through demerits or other sanctions - the school is much more likely to let a girl feel the consequences of not doing it, and learn from that.

JustMarriedBecca · 31/03/2026 08:42

NobodysChildNow · 31/03/2026 07:12

Go and see spgs if you feel like it.

I pity your dc though - sounds like you’ve sucked the fun out of piano (she never wants to practice voluntarily? At grade 8? What a crying shame! At grade 8 I adored my instrument, I lived for my ensemble groups and the Proms with my dad each year. I can’t imagine getting to that level of expertise in an instrument without having an all-consuming passion for making music. What an absolute shame.)

And now you’re already stitching up ideas for y12 and y13?

You’re raising a human being. Did it occur to you that age 16 your dc will know exactly what she wants to do without your six years of planning?

My dc15 knows exactly what she wants! And that is me NOT interfering. My job is to facilitate her becoming a great adult. Not turning her into some little project.

Just calm down, your dc is telling you clearly what they want - listen .

Agree wholeheartedly.

I also have two DC who test at 140 but they have much more autonomy over their own work life balance.
They do chess / music / county sport but it's very much directed by them.
I can't imagine their responses if I tried to map out their life like this

Also, both are state school.

NobodysChildNow · 31/03/2026 07:12

Go and see spgs if you feel like it.

I pity your dc though - sounds like you’ve sucked the fun out of piano (she never wants to practice voluntarily? At grade 8? What a crying shame! At grade 8 I adored my instrument, I lived for my ensemble groups and the Proms with my dad each year. I can’t imagine getting to that level of expertise in an instrument without having an all-consuming passion for making music. What an absolute shame.)

And now you’re already stitching up ideas for y12 and y13?

You’re raising a human being. Did it occur to you that age 16 your dc will know exactly what she wants to do without your six years of planning?

My dc15 knows exactly what she wants! And that is me NOT interfering. My job is to facilitate her becoming a great adult. Not turning her into some little project.

Just calm down, your dc is telling you clearly what they want - listen .

schooleducation · 31/03/2026 07:02

@BonjourCrisette @swdd

My daughter is currently at a private primary school and will be moving to City Junior next year. The reason for private primary is not just about better education, prep but also the environment, peer group, facilities, resources, and specialised teachers-even for creative subjects like DT, art, PE, drama, LAMDA, as well as trips, competitions, languages, extracurricular activities, fixtures, awards, and so much more.

If you can afford a good private school, it’s worth every single penny!

Sashya · 31/03/2026 03:28

BonjourCrisette · 30/03/2026 23:54

This is so interesting. When I was at SPGS a long time ago, we were pushed to STEM so hard to the extent that I ended up studying a STEM subject I wasn't interested in at Oxbridge. I'm really happy that things are more balanced now.

I am not sure what you mean by England not having a culture of challenges exactly. But I'm from an immigrant background on both sides so I can absolutely assure you that my family are very used to challenges and embrace them!

Challenges and quizzes with SPS would absolutely put me off. The schools are v v v differerent. They have different approaches. DD did not enoy the joint stuff with the boys schools mainly because the boys were not as clever as her peers at the girls school and she did not appreciate being shouted down by people who were not able to engage in helpful academic discourse. I think she found the boys just shouted a lot!

Show quote history

Just because your DD preferred the more creative pursuits - does not mean that having academic challenges and competitions with - say the boys school - would not interest other girls, or would not be a good idea.
Avoiding boys shouting - is not really a reason not to expose both boys and girls to joint events where they can interact in an academic setting, while developing important skills. Afterall - they would need to learn to work alongside each other one day.
And of course I am not suggesting compulsory participation....

What I mean by UK being not used to maths or sciences competitions - is as I said. UK does not do much - there are only few available. UKMT is the only country wide challenge that middle school kids can do. Most schools don't teach or practice that sort of creative fun maths in any event. Hence - UK teams never do well in the international competitions.
Same goes for other sciences, programming, robotics. Non-existent in middle school, limited in upper school.

Maybe SPGS used to steer girls to STEM. It does not now, and it teaches it OK, but not in any sort of inspired way, unless you are lucky to get a few better teachers.

And don't even get me started on the trainwreck that is the "new" Computer Science and Creative Technology school directed courses. The disorganisation and lack of leadership in that Dept is appalling. Yet another missed opportunity, IMHO.

But again - it is still a good school that delivers results. And the other options for the girls in area are no better.

Ubertomusic · 31/03/2026 00:28

swdd · 31/03/2026 00:13

For example, the answer to the first question. Your answer is :Probably. The other SPGS mum's answer is:No. My speculative answer is: maybe. So, there seems no common sense answers here.

Show quote history

"Common sense" has a slightly different meaning, you probably meant common knowledge and universally accepted facts then. OK.

Original poster

swdd · 31/03/2026 00:20

BonjourCrisette · 31/03/2026 00:09

Why have you started a whole thread about a school your child is definitely not going to?

I am completely calm. You probably won't get to understand the levels of negativity since your daughter won't be going there.

Show quote history

Because I like SPGS.

OP posts:

Ubertomusic · 31/03/2026 00:15

I think she found the boys just shouted a lot! @BonjourCrisette

DD went from a girls school to co-ed and it was a shock 😂

Original poster

swdd · 31/03/2026 00:13

Ubertomusic · 31/03/2026 00:07

I don't speculate as we have friends at SPGS but OK.

I don't understand what you mean by "far from common sense" 🤷‍♀️

Show quote history

For example, the answer to the first question. Your answer is :Probably. The other SPGS mum's answer is:No. My speculative answer is: maybe. So, there seems no common sense answers here.

OP posts:

BonjourCrisette · 31/03/2026 00:09

swdd · 30/03/2026 23:58

Calm down. I thought you are over sensitive to the comments about your old school. It is just a school, with pros and cons like all others. Why did you take the comments on your school so personally?

Show quote history

Why have you started a whole thread about a school your child is definitely not going to?

I am completely calm. You probably won't get to understand the levels of negativity since your daughter won't be going there.

Ubertomusic · 31/03/2026 00:07

swdd · 30/03/2026 23:33

No harm in discussing but kind of pointless?

@Ubertomusic

I appreciate your answers. Some are speculative and some are subjective which I might or might not agree, but far from definite or common sense answers. So I guess the discussion is not totally pointless.

I don't speculate as we have friends at SPGS but OK.

I don't understand what you mean by "far from common sense" 🤷‍♀️

Original poster

swdd · 30/03/2026 23:58

BonjourCrisette · 30/03/2026 23:56

We get the same negativity each year from people with no experience of the school tbh. We are used to it. No other school bar maybe Eton attracts this type of attention.It's tiring at times.

Calm down. I thought you are over sensitive to the comments about your old school. It is just a school, with pros and cons like all others. Why did you take the comments on your school so personally?

OP posts:

BonjourCrisette · 30/03/2026 23:56

We get the same negativity each year from people with no experience of the school tbh. We are used to it. No other school bar maybe Eton attracts this type of attention.It's tiring at times.

BonjourCrisette · 30/03/2026 23:54

Sashya · 30/03/2026 23:42

@BonjourCrisette

Why would academic challenges/quizzes involving teams from SPGS and SPS put you off? These are teamwork based problem solving type events that give kids who are interested in these sort of challenges great experience.
International Maths Olympiad, for e.g. has teams of about 6 - where they solve problems together.

England does not have much of a culture of academic extension and challenges, so maybe this sounds strange and off-putting to you. But in many other countries it's normal for high achieving kids. It gives them opportunities to get deeper into subjects that they are interested in.

While I am happy kids that like music, drama and art - get to do lots with engaged teachers at SPGS. I have personally not experienced the same level of involvement from STEM teachers over the years my kids were there.
But I am not sure any other school really does it well anyway.

Westminster STEM curriculum is a lot broader than SPGS. It goes a lot broader. And it is also a traditional school in many ways, true. I think it does an excellent job with their really smart boys.

This is so interesting. When I was at SPGS a long time ago, we were pushed to STEM so hard to the extent that I ended up studying a STEM subject I wasn't interested in at Oxbridge. I'm really happy that things are more balanced now.

I am not sure what you mean by England not having a culture of challenges exactly. But I'm from an immigrant background on both sides so I can absolutely assure you that my family are very used to challenges and embrace them!

Challenges and quizzes with SPS would absolutely put me off. The schools are v v v differerent. They have different approaches. DD did not enoy the joint stuff with the boys schools mainly because the boys were not as clever as her peers at the girls school and she did not appreciate being shouted down by people who were not able to engage in helpful academic discourse. I think she found the boys just shouted a lot!

Original poster

swdd · 30/03/2026 23:53

International Maths Olympiad, for e.g. has teams of about 6 - where they solve problems together. @Sashya

To be clear, in IMO they solve problems independently. But I know what you meant: they do collaborate and discuss a lot during preparation, usually under the supervision of teachers. UKMT do that for the IMO team.

Before I saw your previous comments, I would always grouped SPGS in the same bracket as St Paul’s Boys and Westminster when it came to elite-level maths. I was under the impression they’d have a similar culture of top-tier competition circles—not just the standard UKMT Maths Challenges, but a significant focus on the Olympiad level, like BMO.

OP posts:

BonjourCrisette · 30/03/2026 23:46

swdd · 30/03/2026 23:27

DD went to the school in our area that everyone goes private to avoid and it did her absolutely no harm and quite a lot of good.

In other threads you complained about this school and you DD didn't like it. Do you think the state primary best suits your DD?
（You said you chose SPGS because it is the best fit）Do you think your.DD could not do better in prep school than in this.state primary that you don't like and everyone avoid?

You clearly haven't read very well. She did like it. The entirety of our problems with it stemmed from SATs (not anything to do with the school).

I think DD would have had a much worse time in a prep school. I don't generally like the ethos of these places and she wasn't a conformer.

Sashya · 30/03/2026 23:42

@BonjourCrisette

Why would academic challenges/quizzes involving teams from SPGS and SPS put you off? These are teamwork based problem solving type events that give kids who are interested in these sort of challenges great experience.
International Maths Olympiad, for e.g. has teams of about 6 - where they solve problems together.

England does not have much of a culture of academic extension and challenges, so maybe this sounds strange and off-putting to you. But in many other countries it's normal for high achieving kids. It gives them opportunities to get deeper into subjects that they are interested in.

While I am happy kids that like music, drama and art - get to do lots with engaged teachers at SPGS. I have personally not experienced the same level of involvement from STEM teachers over the years my kids were there.
But I am not sure any other school really does it well anyway.

Westminster STEM curriculum is a lot broader than SPGS. It goes a lot broader. And it is also a traditional school in many ways, true. I think it does an excellent job with their really smart boys.

Original poster

swdd · 30/03/2026 23:33

No harm in discussing but kind of pointless?

@Ubertomusic

I appreciate your answers. Some are speculative and some are subjective which I might or might not agree, but far from definite or common sense answers. So I guess the discussion is not totally pointless.

OP posts:

Original poster

swdd · 30/03/2026 23:27

DD went to the school in our area that everyone goes private to avoid and it did her absolutely no harm and quite a lot of good.

In other threads you complained about this school and you DD didn't like it. Do you think the state primary best suits your DD?
（You said you chose SPGS because it is the best fit）Do you think your.DD could not do better in prep school than in this.state primary that you don't like and everyone avoid?

OP posts:

Ubertomusic · 30/03/2026 23:22

swdd · 30/03/2026 22:55

Would holding an SPGS offer increase the chance of getting scholarship(means £££) at another school? Would it boost her confidence of academic excellence? Would it help when in 16+ we seriously consider it again if we were offer holders years ago? Would it help to just broaden her vision of a top school? Would it be an enriching life experience as the exam itself is intellectually stimulating? All of the above are more important than an ego thing.
There are aslo downsides of course, but there seems little harm considering it or discussing it on internet.

Show quote history

Would holding an SPGS offer increase the chance of getting scholarship(means £££) at another school?

Probably, but not all schools engage in bidding wars for applicants.

Would it boost her confidence of academic excellence?

Depends on the child but there are more productive ways to boost confidence than doing exams for a school you're not going to send her to.

Would it help when in 16+ we seriously consider it again if we were offer holders years ago?

Not necessarily. They might think you're not serious about their offers.

Would it help to just broaden her vision of a top school?

Only if you actually go there.

Would it be an enriching life experience as the exam itself is intellectually stimulating?

No, exams are stressful not enriching.

No harm in discussing but kind of pointless?

BonjourCrisette · 30/03/2026 23:21

Genuinely no idea what you mean, do feel free to elaborate.

Would holding an SPGS offer increase the chance of getting scholarship(means £££) at another school?
No.

Would it boost her confidence of academic excellence?
Maybe. Does she care? I don't think it sounds like she is that bothered.

Would it help when in 16+ we seriously consider it again if we were offer holders years ago?
Probably not. And cannot see the point of joining at this stage. You'll have missed out on a lot of the fun stuff. At this point it's just A Levels and university. If you've not been there for the past experience, you won't get the most out of these last two years.

Would it help to just broaden her vision of a top school?
Don't know what this means and it genuinely doesn't matter if she doesn't want to go there (not sure why you are still obsessing over any of it when she is not interested).

Would it be an enriching life experience as the exam itself is intellectually stimulating?
Um, maybe if your kid really likes taking exams.

Original poster

swdd · 30/03/2026 23:07

i don't know what you mean about doing even better.

GCSE grades only go up to 9, so what I meant by "better" could be anything else... Well, if you are convinced that no SPGS girls could possibly do better in other schools, then so be it.

OP posts:

Original poster

swdd · 30/03/2026 22:55

AgeingBanana · 30/03/2026 22:27

She doesn’t want to go, you don’t think she’ll fit in, it doesn’t cater to any of her strengths and it would stretch you financially. I’m not sure why you’re even considering it, unless it’s just an ego thing for you to say she got in?

Would holding an SPGS offer increase the chance of getting scholarship(means £££) at another school? Would it boost her confidence of academic excellence? Would it help when in 16+ we seriously consider it again if we were offer holders years ago? Would it help to just broaden her vision of a top school? Would it be an enriching life experience as the exam itself is intellectually stimulating? All of the above are more important than an ego thing.
There are aslo downsides of course, but there seems little harm considering it or discussing it on internet.

OP posts: