Didn’t get into any choices, placed into Catholic School - help

The FSM data used would probably be from the same source. As is the ethnicity and other metrics. They're all held on the school MIS.

Although, thinking about it, there are different dates for data collection for each - October for Pupil Premium, November for SWR (only includes permanent staff, not long term supply), January for CES (includes long term supply, excludes staff on long term leave, such as maternity, counts support staff in class with children). So it could be an issue there, as it's not comparing like with like.

I’m not the OP, but may I suggest that anyone who wants to discuss the merits or otherwise of faith schools starts their own thread?

The CES has measured something different. The Sutton Trust used publicly available data on free school meals and other metrics.

Can you prove that the data used by the Sutton Trust is wrong? Has the CES disproven the Sutton Trust, or simply measured something else?

And your reply? Oh, well, but they are diverse in other respects...

No. To use your words, your comprehension and cognitive skills are poor. That isn’t what I said at all. Not all the posts were about social-economics, I was merely pointing out there is more to be considered and the statistics you cherry picked weren’t the whole story in relation to diversity as a whole. But you carry on making things up to fit your narrative.

And yet you are extrapolating about the LOS. Repeatedly.
No!*

Yes!

Seeing as the CES return is obtained from the personnel and admissions records of the schools that complete it - and there are legal requirements to record data correctly for both adults and children (a lot of the pupil level data - including ethnicity and FSM status is also reported to the DfE and funding is derived from the Autumn census for the following academic year) - it's a damn sight more reliable than somebody with an axe to grind and a special interest in being as personally insulting as possible on the internet.

@NimbleMauveRobin The statistics quoted above are at odds with the Catholic Education Services own figures which show that Catholic schools have a more diverse work force and more diverse pupil population than other schools. For example 44% of pupils in Catholic state primaries compared with 36% in non religious schools

No. The Catholic Education Service brags about the diversity of its pupils
https://www.catholiceducation.org.uk/news/england-catholic-school-pupils-much-more-diverse-than-national-average---new-data

Humanists UK and the Sutton Trust complain that faith schools are socially selective.
Multiple things can be true at once:

faith schools can be diverse in terms of ethnicity, even if most of the diversity is inthe worse performing school, while still being socially selective overall

Again, read the report of the Sutton Trust https://www.suttontrust.com/our-research/selective-comprehensives-2024/

I didn’t mention socio-economic diversity.
Precisely!
The problem is they are socially selective.
And your reply? Oh, well, but they are diverse in other respects...

And yet you are extrapolating about the LOS. Repeatedly.

No! I have quoted multiple research, like that of the Sutton Trust above, confirming that the London Oratory is not an isolated case.

I won't engage further with you: your inability to grasp such a banal concept proves it would be a waste of time. Goodbye.

@ParentOfOne I didn’t mention socio-economic diversity. It seems it is you that struggles with comprehension. Diversity is about more than just the Ever 6 rate. Even in London, not all schools in London have that rate of EAL. Even if you wanted to look at social-economic diversity in particular, there would still be more to consider than the Ever 6 rate.

my point all along is that single cases are irrelevant because you have no way of knowing how representative or not they are.
I have been very clear that single cases are irrelevant.

And yet you are extrapolating about the LOS. Repeatedly.

Your quotes from the humanist society are prime examples of someone marking their own homework!!!

@NeverDropYourMooncup My approach is I'm not doxxing myself to satisfy your rage. I've already explained that.

Doxxing? The text comprehension skills are worse than I had thought. Doxxing would require you revealing the specific school of which you have experience, but my point all along is that single cases are irrelevant because you have no way of knowing how representative or not they are.

So let me get this straight: are you saying that you are basing your entire conclusions on one or two isolated cases known to you, and that it has not occurred to you they might not be representative?

Churches don't own the police, police stations, police cars, pay 10% of the costs or have power of arrest. Well, except for Vatican City.
They're not paying 10% of my biologics, either.

What a nonsensical argument. By that logic, would it be OK if a Church gave the land for a hospital, paid 10% of the costs, but required that people of its faith get priority treatment???

@KeepItSpinning The London Oratory School has an English as an Additional Language rate of 43.1% compared to a national average of 19.2%

You want to compare English as a second language in central London, one of the most international places on the planet, vs the whole of England?

Again, text comprehension skills are worse than I thought. What part of "socio-economically selective" was unclear?

Some Catholic schools have a higher than average FSM rate. You are taking one school and extrapolating it to all.

This is past poor text comprehension skills - we are getting into poor cognitive skills territory. I have been very clear that single cases are irrelevant. Which is why I have quoted research proving that the Oratory is not an isolated case. But you chose to ignore that.

@NimbleMauveRobin The Oratory case you quote is from 2017. A whole cohort of pupils have passed through schools since then.

That's only because they were defeated in court!! They didn't reform internally - they fought tooth and nail, and lost. You seem to be forgetting this tiny detail.
Also, it remains socially selective to this day

Again your anti Catholic vitriol is concerning. Would you write about another religion in the same way on this forum?

I don't write about one specific religion because that would be like signing a death sentence, as recent history shows.

I couldn't care less what Catholics do, as long as they don't enslave innocent women, abuse innocent children, or expect everyone's taxes to fund a discriminatory education system. Is quoting historical facts vitriol now? The Magdalene Laundries are a historical fact. It carried on till the 1990s FFS, we are not talking about 500 years ago.

Anyway, you lot have confirmed that you welcome discrimination.
I fight it.
We are not the same. Not even close.

The statistics quoted above are at odds with the Catholic Education Services own figures which show that Catholic schools have a more diverse work force and more diverse pupil population than other schools.

You mean that someone marking their own homework paints a rosier picture? How shocking!!!

Wat I find intellectually dishonest is that those who are pro-religious discrimination in education take the socially selective well-performing schools as an example of good performance, and the undersubscribed, poorly performing schools (like St John Bosco) as an example of diversity. You can't have it both ways.

The statistics quoted above are at odds with the Catholic Education Services own figures which show that Catholic schools have a more diverse work force and more diverse pupil population than other schools. For example 44% of pupils in Catholic state primaries compared with 36% in non religious schools. The Oratory case you quote is from 2017. A whole cohort of pupils have passed through schools since then. Again your anti Catholic vitriol is concerning. Would you write about another religion in the same way on this forum?

@ParentOfOne The London Oratory School has an English as an Additional Language rate of 43.1% compared to a national average of 19.2%. So in that regard, yes, it is diverse. But you would have known that from when you looked at the Ever 6 FSM data because it is right above it, you just chose to cherry pick the data that fit your rhetoric and ignore that which didn’t.

Some Catholic schools have a higher than average FSM rate. You are taking one school and extrapolating it to all.

My approach is I'm not doxxing myself to satisfy your rage. I've already explained that.

Churches don't own the police, police stations, police cars, pay 10% of the costs or have power of arrest. Well, except for Vatican City.

They're not paying 10% of my biologics, either.

I don't give a flying fuck for religion. But I do like social justice - and seeing children who actually represent the full spectrum of financial and ethnicity categories instead of the 'nice, middle-class, white' kids that enter schools because their parents have three quarters of a million or more to bang out on a house round the corner like the Oratory is something I approve of. And widening the net away from owning the big house is levelling the playing field more than sticking to letting parents buy their way into an ostensibly free education.

That's not a school under the control of the Diocese. It's a very old fashioned admissions policy and they are likely approving them despite considerable pressure from the Diocese. The 2027/28 policy has to be determined and published on the website by the end of the week - and further searching shows that they consulted on that policy.

Most of the schools run by religious orders are being transferred to diocesan control as the orders themselves age out of dealing with education. When that happens, the likely outcome is that they join a catholic academy trust - I've just googled and the first admissions policy I accessed gave all looked after and previously looked after children of all faiths (and none) top priority, no particular priority for practising catholics/mass attendance, siblings of all kinds and then attending feeder schools with no faith requirement at all for either, then other children.

They still seem uncessarily complicated to me, but it is still a considerable way from a wording that was phased out in Diocesan schools some time ago.

@NeverDropYourMooncup the data doesn't lie

What data? Where is this data? Show it!

I have presented research and data. You have presented mere anecdotes, for which you have no way of knowing how representative they are!!!

in a fairly homogenous area, a faith based criteria can and does have the effect of increasing diversity because it cuts across economic and social lines in a way that being able to afford a house round the corner doesn't

That's just an unsubstantiated assertion.

The London Oratory is a living proof of the exact opposite.
One single school does not prove anything, but the research I linked shows that the Oratory is not an isolated case.

Your approach is the same as someone saying: "oh but my grandpa died at 95 smoking 5 cigarettes every day" when someone points out the dangers of smoking. Single cases are irrelevant. A single case does not disprove well-researched and documented nationwide trends.

@Hereforthecommentz You are 100% correct, you only need to attend church to know a lot of the congregation are not white

Diverse churchgoers does not necessarily mean diverse intake at a faith school.
Again, look at the data. Look at the research

This goes against most people anti Christian propaganda so they like to spot off a load of rubbish about diversity and they completely wrong.

It took a legal fight to get the Oratory to change its discriminatory admission policies! Pointing it out is anti-Christian propaganda??

The Oratory is far more socially selective than other schools in the borough.
Plenty of research shows it's not an isolated case.

A much more diverse Catholic school (St John Bosco) just 2kms south of the Oratory is a constantly undersubscribed and underperforming school where no one wants to go. Coincidence?

How is pointing out these facts "propaganda"?
Facts don't become propaganda just because you don't like them.

You lot have no problem using everyone's tax money to fund crucial services which discriminate based on faith. Only morally bankrupt individuals without a moral compass would agree to this abomination.

If you ever need the police or the ambulance, and they put you in a longer queue because priority goes to people of a different protected characteristic, how would you rect?

You are 100% correct, you only need to attend church to know a lot of the congregation are not white. Black, Eastern European, Indian predominantly, fijian Christians from all over the place. All the secular schools locally are very much white, my child's Catholic School class it's about 50percent white, in her friend group of 7 only 2 are white British. Most white British are atheists. This goes against most people anti Christian propaganda so they like to spout out a load of rubbish about diversity and they completely wrong.

They can be more diverse as a result, yes. I've worked at two separate schools with faith based criteria and both were significantly more diverse in ethnicity and economic status than the surrounding area - and more so than in the maintained/community/non faith schools.

I appreciate that this is purely anecdotal because, you know, if you start citing particular schools, you're about ten minutes away from somebody being able to work out who you are IRL. But considering I'm absolutely not religious in any shape, way or manner - my only concern is having employment that pays my bills - seeing the differences and reporting on the differences, the data doesn't lie; in a fairly homogenous area, a faith based criteria can and does have the effect of increasing diversity because it cuts across economic and social lines in a way that being able to afford a house round the corner doesn't.

Visit the school before making assumptions. My child goes to a catholic school and is catholic but there are plenty of atheists, there's Muslims and Hindus too. They HAVE to do RE as GCSE unlike secular schools and learn about other faiths. They often have culture days and are way more multi cultural than the secular schools locally. Non Christians have to respect the ethos of Christianity but aren't indoctrinated into it. My friend went to a RC school as a child and she remains very much a hindu and it's not damaged her in any way!

Very glad to hear that the admission authority has acknowledged its mistake and given the place.

@morozova89 I'm really pleased for you and I hope it turns out to be the best school for your DS.

As for the wider argument, it might be worth remembering that all state funded schools (including academies) must take part in a single daily act of collective worship, whether as a whole body or as groups within the body of the school. Schools with a faith designation are required to follow that faith, and those without must provide an act of worship with a 'broadly Christian character.'

Now, we all know that most schools don't follow this to the letter, and would instead focus on some issue of ethics or social conduct that fits with a broadly Christian principle (such as sharing, kindness, tolerance, etc.), but nonetheless, the requirement is there. So that's one reason, a lot of faith based arguments of 'I'm not religious so my child shouldn't go here...' will fail.

It would be useful to remember that the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child recommended the UK scrap faith-based admission. it urged the UK to

"guarantee the right of all children to freedom of expression and to practise freely their religion or belief", including by "preventing the use of religion as a selection criterion for school admissions in England".
tbinternet.ohchr.org/_layouts/15/treatybodyexternal/Download.aspx?symbolno=CRC%2FC%2FGBR%2FCO%2F6-7&Lang=en

The 50% cap for new schools was introduced in 2007 by Labour.
Humanists UK concluded that the cap improved inclusion and diversity https://humanists.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016-09-15-FINAL-Ethnic-diversity-in-religious-Free-Schools.pdf

some faith groups (particularly Catholics) objected to it and made it clear that they would not open new free schools or convert existing schools to academies unless the cap was removed

Not just that: some Catholic lobbies engaged in a shameful and dishonest misinformation campaign, blatantly lying that the cap was in some way against Church law, when it was not
https://humanists.uk/2017/11/20/mps-misled-on-catholic-school-admissions-claims/
These are the same people who enslaved Irish women in the Magdalene laundries till the 1990s, who lobbied to keep contraception illegal in Ireland (I think the pill was illegal there till the 1980ish), who covered up sexual abuses in the Church, etc etc etc

There was a consultation to remove it, mainly because some faith groups (particularly Catholics) objected to it and made it clear that they would not open new free schools or convert existing schools to academies unless the cap was removed. However, the general election was called before the consultation completed and the Labour government dropped the idea. The 50% rule therefore remains in place.

Thanks, that’s very interesting. And makes sense given the common misconception that there is actually much choice when it comes to how education is apportioned

Really great news OP!

For a while, new academies could only give 50% of places based on faith. That seemed like a reasonable compromise. I believe the government rolled back on that on the grounds that it didn't make sense to have two separate rules for old and new schools.

The rules are that faith schools can prioritise children of the faith over LAC who are not of the faith, but LAC of the faith must come first, and LAC not of the faith must come before any other children not of the faith. Some do prioritise LAC children of the faith in this way, many don't. Note that the admission policy of the school to which you link is counter to the policy of the Archdiocese of Liverpool (which is not binding on schools but most will follow it). This prioritises all LAC children regardless of faith.

Faith schools cannot exclude SEN children in admissions, nor can any other school. However, many state schools, both faith and non-faith, treat SEN children poorly and find ways to manage them out.

It is unlikely that any government will take away the ability of faith schools to prioritise on faith grounds any time soon because of cost. If the government did this, all Catholic schools would close along with some other schools of minor faiths. This would leave the government either having to buy the land and buildings from the Catholic church at full market value or having to build new schools for over 850,000 pupils. This would cost the taxpayer billions of pounds. As well as the initial capital cost in creating these places, there would be an ongoing cost. The Catholic church contributes at least 10% of the capital costs involved in maintaining and improving Catholic schools and for at least some schools also tops up the government grant, allowing them to spend more per pupil than community schools.