LEH or Tiffin girls

You're mixing up two userxxxx posters. I do accept that can be a drawback with this naming convention.

That said, I disagree with your equation of extreme competitiveness with toxicity. I once interviewed someone who rowed for Cambridge. I asked them whether they would prefer winning because Oxford capsized while in the lead, or losing. I leave you to imagine what their answer was.

It is lovely to hear about the girls from your son's school! I really doubt the dog eat dog claims—most students wouldn't even dream of being that negative to visiting parents, even if they were unhappy. It feels like a very harsh stereotype that doesn't reflect the character-building the school is actually known for.

And it is not like it is " harder" and more challenging at e.g.Oxford than e.g. Univ of Bath. ---- @BlueMoonIceCream

Very fair point about unis being subject-focused. I am genuinely curious, though—following your example, which specific subjects are more challenging at Bath than at Oxford?

I know three girls going to Tiffin in September from my son's state primary school. All lovely and quite normal although bright of course. I hope the stories here of it being overly competitive and dog eat dog are wrong.

@BlueMoonIceCream
Nobody said that Tiffin Girls is toxic. ( Who did?)

@user149799568 did -- “they didn’t like how competitive it was amongst peers. Very dog eat dog.”
That is what I was responding to—I'm not sure how else to interpret dog eat dog other than as a description of a toxic culture.

As I mentioned before, if OP’s DD isn't naturally a maths person or is already feeling a bit intimidated by the Tiffin name, it might just not be the right fit for her personality.

That is a very valid point.

But honestly, competitiveness isn't a bad thing by default, is it?

Of course it is not. That is why I said that it depends on a child. Some emotionally resilient girls will thrive and have best time at Tiffin and some end up with mental health challenges. Right school for a right child.

It’s like comparing Oxbridge to a lower-tier uni; some find it a struggle, but loads of others actually thrive on that energy.

I would not say it is the best comparison as with Universities we look per subject. Oxford and Cambridge is best at some subjects and at other subjects are totally different universities. And it is not like it is " harder" and more challenging at e.g.Oxford than e.g. Univ of Bath.

Personally, I think the objective data is far more reliable than just 'my friend says' or any hearsay and speculation. A school simply couldn't achieve those ratings if the pastoral care was failing or if the competitive atmosphere was actually toxic.

I think you are mixing few topics. Nobody said that Tiffin Girls is toxic. ( Who did?) Competitive does not equal immediately toxic. Simply, there are top performers there from very driven families. People with huge ambition. Some girls there are naturally gifted with IQ close to genius. Some are hothoused and pushed to get in and tutored all the way. Not because they are not that smart but simply because their parents are very ambitious and teachers push for it as well. Some girls are so ambitious that emotionally cannot handle self imposed pressure. That is why I say: the right school for a right child.

Out of those two Tiffin Girls and LEH I would still select Tiffin simply because ai know people who work at LEH. But you have a very valid point with the fact that if I child is not passionate about STEM and you see that she will be more to humanities then the private route probably is a better choice.

No intention to start a fight at all, and apologies if I mistakenly read your mind! Perhaps I was being a bit arrogant in how I phrased it, so I am sorry for that.

It is just that the dog eat dog stories really don't sit right with me. It feels like such a harsh way to paint a caricature of a group of schoolgirls. I find it difficult to reconcile that kind of hearsay with the actual objective data. For instance, the latest Ofsted report specifically highlights that building pupils’ character and self-esteem is a strength of the school under Personal Development and Wellbeing.
If inspectors had found a toxic or dog eat dog atmosphere among the students, there is simply no way they would have described character-building as a strength or rated the school as Outstanding—especially under the much tougher new criteria that focuses so heavily on student wellbeing.

I know few kids at KGS and it is a happy atmosphere, healthy balance with a great pastoral care.
A school is not the one usually the reason for the results but the kids and their parents. Tiffin has an easy start because of the type of kids that are joining. And LEH had wraker A levels in the last years.
However, I don't know the details about how extensive is additional PE offer at KGS and what is there on offer on the top of weekly lessons. May be weaker than elsewhere. However, I know that one kid from KGS attends some PE activities on Saturday and they use Tiffin Boys sports facilities.

Please do not make a judgment basing on the building renovation. I remember times when Tiffin really needed tin of paint and a brush but since then things changed a lot.

Agree it’s not for every child—definitely horses for courses here! As I mentioned before, if OP’s DD isn't naturally a maths person or is already feeling a bit intimidated by the Tiffin name, it might just not be the right fit for her personality.

But honestly, competitiveness isn't a bad thing by default, is it? Any top selective—whether Tiffin or St Paul’s girls—is bound to be more intense than a less selective one. It’s like comparing Oxbridge to a lower-tier uni; some find it a struggle, but loads of others actually thrive on that energy.

My own DD is at an all-through private junior (comparable to LEH) at the moment. It’s selective but not pushy. She’s top of the class but bored. She is academic but not particularly self-motivated, and she's the type who is easily affected by her peers. For a child like her, a school like Tiffin would offer a healthy dose of peer pressure and the academic stretch she’s actually crying out for. In fact, she is also very excited whenever we talk about Tiffin, which is a big indicator for me.

Also, is there actually any hard evidence for these breakdowns specifically at Tiffin? Most first-hand accounts I’ve seen on internet forums from current girls and parents are overwhelmingly positive about the pastoral care. If you want a real apples to apples comparison, look at Henrietta Barnett (HBS)—the feedback there is much more mixed or even negative, and their Ofsted is only Good. Tiffin Girls, on the other hand, is Outstanding and described as Exceptional even under the much tougher new criteria. Personally, I think the objective data is far more reliable than just 'my friend says' or any hearsay and speculation. A school simply couldn't achieve those ratings if the pastoral care was failing or if the competitive atmosphere was actually toxic. The inspectors specifically look at student wellbeing now.

It is pretty arrogant of this person to judge top students and teachers based on a "friend's" story

Do you currently, or have you in the past, actually have a DD in either of the schools? Only one of the many posters who have offered advice has claimed that. Whether memorably named or "userxxxx", are the others all arrogant as well?

The real motive here is obvious

It's pretty arrogant to claim to have read another person's mind 🙄

But Tiffin Girls have a very competitive atmosphere and it is a school for very academic, emotionally strong girls. The teachers expect a lot, push is strong to keep in top ranking. Some girls have emotional breakdown as a result and other girls are thriving.
It is all down to the right choice for a right child.
Personally, I would not send a child to either of those schools but Kingston Grammar.

Errrr no.

OP, please be careful with advice from a generic account like "User-xxxx." Calling 11-year-olds "dog eat dog" is a massive stretch and sounds like a bad TV script. It is pretty arrogant of this person to judge top students and teachers based on a "friend's" story that barely sounds believable.
The real motive here is obvious: they are trying to put people off Tiffin just to shorten the waiting list for themselves. It is classic fear-mongering and sour grapes. Don't let someone hiding behind a user-number sway your decision!

Not a very recent experience but a friend went around tiffin with his daughter and they asked the girls if there was one thing they could change and the responses were they didn’t like how competitive it was amongst peers. Very dog eat dog. The girl ended up going to Alleyns. My more recent experience when I visited was some of the girls and the teacher I met came across as quite arrogant when quite frankly there is no need for them to be like this. The LEH girls I know are confident and more well rounded. The alumni network is strong with lots of mentoring. Good luck with the path you decide to take.

I have an impression that your dd is excellent in English but not so in Maths. Tiffin is strong in STEM and probably LEH as a private school good at Humanites. So I guess your dd is more likely to thrive in LEH.

Congrats to your daughters. I think most parents would choose Tiffin instead of LEH. However, if it’s St Paul girl vs Tiffin, most of people go SPG.

I understand school coach look like an easy option, but it is so easy to miss coach with clubs and events. So public transport might be the way you need to consider.

OP, I understand what you mean. It’s something you can afford. And given that, if it gives you pleasure to spend your money on schooling to provide a smoother and nicer journey through school for your kids…why not.

And I get what you mean about the query about if LEH really provides so much more or if it is marketing.

Some of it certainly is marketing. Tiffin will do amazingly well in the very limited funds they have. But LEH will have vastly superior resourcing and that will be seen in shinier facilities, more text books, smaller classes, more flexible options at GCSE and A Level, probably more 1-2-1 support if needed and things like provision of counselling if needed etc etc. It will be a more comfy and consumer focused experience with you treated as the paying parent rather than someone lucky to have he place. Some people want to pay for that stuff. Others think it’s window dressing and not needed. Some of it depends on your child.

Re you wanting the school to do it all…well they will do more as you pay for it. But they won’t do it all. Kids who do best at any school have invovled parents. LEH will run lots of sport and extra curriculars. You would need to expect to be doing the drive for late night pick-ups. If the bus doesn’t go your way after extra curriculars, that’s a real problem in my view….because being able to fully participate in after school stuff is a key part of what you’re paying for and what sets the experience apart from state school.

I had a friend who paid for independent school. Her view was that her kids had to be invovled in music and sport at school until the end of yr 11. They could have had an excellent academic experience at the nearby v good state school, but it was these wider experiences which set the independent apart, and she was only prepared to pay for it if the kids accessed what was available. Seemed reasonable to me. But it also invovled them as parents in lots of driving, attending sports matches to support etc etc. Most independent school families are invovled. They have high powered Jon’s but they are often pretty flexible, so they can get to an afternoon match if they want to. Parents do regularly drive the hour to pick up at 10pm after. A late night drama rehearsal or attending a lecture series. It’s all part of it. The school provides the stuff, but you have to facilitate involvement. If you can’t, Boarding is the option that provides it all…but that’s a different thing again.

I’d say the cosy coach feel very attractive for the 11 year old. It is safe and reassuring to you. But you’d be surprised how quickly they adapt to public transport and also the benefits when they’re older if the independence and flexibility that public transport gives. There are often multiple ways home, flexibility about timings and a level of independence that can be so useful for a 15 year old. But you’ll still need to expect to drive more regularly to school than you think, for the myriad of evening events and other stuff.

Good luck in choosing. You’re in a fortunate position and whatever you choose will be a great education.

We have one extremely happy daughter at LEH and another starting in September. It’s a great school. Our experiences are only positive. Yes, a lot of clever kids but also well rounded ones. They are creative, sporty, musical etc… They work hard but have fun too. The families are down to earth.

However, you would need to know your options for getting back after school clubs if you can’t use the late bus. There will be some sport/drama/music at times after school.

Some parents share commuting to Tiffin girls

Hampton / LEH school bus cost is above £2k annually. Please check how long will take the journey. The busses are not allowed to crowd the streets and that is why they have staggered arrival. This translates to very early departures. It can easily be 1 h. Also, what if she stays longer at school e.g. for the afternoon club, team project. How is the LEH commute then . R70 bus, 111 bus or longer walk from station or 285 bus, R68

OP, when you say rat race do you mean hothouse? Both schools are highly selective and with that comes competitive parents and highly driven girls. You're perhaps questioning the culture of one school versus the other? I have friends with girls at both schools and there's no doubt they are both great options. But you said neither looked fun - my Tiffin friends were definitely not looking for fun at school and their girls are the type whose priorities will be to study study study - they worked hard to get in there after all. They don't socialise after school or do many clubs unless at lunchtime as they need to catch trains home. The LEH girls i know are both sporty and academic, with time at weekends spent playing lacross for the school. Many girls i know have loved Tiffin, others have found it tough (too many competitive girls vying for top marks etc and such a focus on academics - true of many highly selective schools).
As you said, it's about the journey not the outcome and it depends what fun means to you - your DD will i'm sure do well academically at either school. In literal terms I'd be looking at the easiest/shorter journey as traveling on early winter mornings is definitely not fun if it's a tricky journey.

The key thing is that both are v good. But is one £200k better than the other?

Of course LEH has sold itself hard - they need to ‘win’ customers like your DC who also has a great state school offer. Yes, private schools have fab catering and other frills, but is the education itself £200k better? That’s the real Q. If the £200k is a drop in the ocean to you, fair enough to choose it….otherwise it’s not entirely rational when you have a highly coveted free option.

As others say, think what £200k could do for your DC in adult life or for yourselves in terms of early retirement etc. if you were facing a sink school as the state alternative I can see why you’d choose LEH, but you’re facing one of the very top state grammars.

In the end, I think the latent has to choose. Kids can have opinions and express them, but in the end you must choose. It can’t come down to them liking the food more or other spurious things. You get to choose because you’re the parent and are able to make a more informed choice.

Bear in mind, that in the very unlikely event that you don’t like Tiffin, there could well be a place at LEH part way through. The reverse is extremely extremely unlikely. Sixth Form also gives options to change.

hasnt the LEH deadline passed by now?

I sent DM to you. I don't think it would be fair to write here she said, he said etc.