Why white children are not getting into grammar schools

Yes, maybe they should just abolish all the grammars and just have comprehensives so the white boys who don't work hard can get in. That way it will be less like Mumbai or Karachi.

In fact, why not extend that philosophy to universities? Have quotas for underachieving white men who are down the pub while those sneaky brown people are studying. That would make it truly inclusive.

Clever " Asians" ie anyone not white. Damned if you work hard and achieve. Damned if you don't.

The ethnic mix affects the curriculum. Asian parents are very keen on STEM which is all well and good but then numbers in other subjects like English and Music drop at A level and they don't run because the numbers are too small. And then there is peer pressure. Asian parents often want kids to go to unis close by and study certain subjects so a white child in a London grammar might be the only child applying to say Sheffield to do History and that can be lonely and isolating.

from anyone who might have been or might currently be in a situation where their non-Asian children are in a very small minority (5% or less for example) within their school - with the positive and/or negative sides to it

The negative side of predominantly S Asian grammar schools may be the obsession with STEM to the detriment of the arts and sports. Not all grammars are like that but many are. If your family is artsy like ours, DC might struggle to find friends with similar interests in grammar.

S Asian community is changing too, with younger parents being more open to different career paths, but these families tend to choose private schools for more rounded education.

It’s funny you mention 'white men'—I suppose the next step is to put history in reverse and ban women from higher education, just to reserve university places for the boys who’d rather slack off!

They are keen on STEM because they don't have family money to support a career playing the cello. And if they don't have high earning careers, they will be blamed for being leaches on the economy.

This is true but I suppose I'd ask why focus on ethnicity as the main factor that will determine whether your DC will fit and belong? It's early days but my white DD fits in well with her peers at grammar school - she's had an easier time making friends than my older dd, and it's also contributing to a vicious circle if people self select out of a process on the basis they don't fit the majority demographic.

I don't love the grammar school system tbh but the whole point of it is it takes the top scoring students. It's a bit odd if you support the concept of a grammar school but then try and make it more comprehensive by adding in all sorts of diversity criteria exceptions (apart from those that are more about adjustments to identify the students with most potential). Why not just make it a comprehensive?

People can choose what they want but those choices affect everyone and society as a whole. If you look at other migrant groups who have been successful in the UK such as the Chinese and the Jewish groups who came earlier in the 20th century they came with nothing yet still were active in the arts.

@CalT1989 I think you’ve nailed why there are disproportionately more Asian kids in grammar schools - you are actually considering moving to a different part of the country simply to access grammar schools. For the vast majority of people this would simply not be a consideration. There are no grammar schools in my county and none in any of the adjacent counties but it would simply never occur to me or anyone in my circle to uproot our family to Bucks or wherever simply to get into a grammar school. It’s not even on the radar.

The ethnic mix affects the curriculum. Asian parents are very keen on STEM which is all well and good but then numbers in other subjects like English and Music drop at A level and they don't run because the numbers are too small. And then there is peer pressure. Asian parents often want kids to go to unis close by and study certain subjects so a white child in a London grammar might be the only child applying to say Sheffield to do History and that can be lonely and isolating.

I also think an arms race in preparation and tutoring is in no one's interests and personally there's a limit to how much prep I would want my DC to do, especially for the parts of the test with limited intrinsic value. So would support a more tutor proof application system, or just a less competitive approach in general.

I also think an arms race in preparation and tutoring is in no one's interests and personally there's a limit to how much prep I would want my DC to do, especially for the parts of the test with limited intrinsic value. So would support a more tutor proof application system, or just a less competitive approach in general.

Chinese and Jewish people aren't routinely accused by Reform or Restore of being Deliveroo drivers or benefit scroungers or ' coming over on a boat'.

Visas were not given to Asian violinists or artists in the 60s. They were given to doctors and engineers. Bit unfair now to complain that all the doctors who were brought in to build the NHS should have been active in the arts instead!

This entire thread smacks of jealousy really that Asian kids are more clever and work harder.

From a different viewpoint, Dd1's grammar school (Latymer) is more diverse ethnically that Dd2's east London comp. Dd1's had friends across many races including Jewish, south Asian, east Asian, Black and White. While dd2's school is mainly South Asian and white, so actually feels a bit less diverse.
The grammar has also been great for music and drama, though for A levels Stem subjects are favoured - but I think this is a national trend?

From a different viewpoint, Dd1's grammar school (Latymer) is more diverse ethnically that Dd2's east London comp. Dd1's had friends across many races including Jewish, south Asian, east Asian, Black and White. While dd2's school is mainly South Asian and white, so actually feels a bit less diverse.
The grammar has also been great for music and drama, though for A levels Stem subjects are favoured - but I think this is a national trend?

Yes and especially among lower socio economic groups who tend to want a more certain career path.

My DD did nothing like that amount of prep but also not nothing. She did about 30 mins of practice about 4 times a week in the 6 months preceding the exam, had 3 hours of tutoring in total plus one mock, and dropped none of her usual hobbies (football, tennis and brownies) or playdates.

But on the whole she enjoyed the prep and picked self study above holiday club in the 2 weeks before the exam. She asked to apply to grammar school in the first place and for me to book a mock. So while I support balance in all things I do think parents can do their kids a disservice by assuming studying is less rewarding than any other pastime and I do think Asian parenting culture generally speaking can be less shy about this.

Those that were over prepped tend to need tutors pretty much as they walk into grammar school. I’d like to say regardless of ethnicity but who knows… I frequently see WhatsApp messages popping up asking for tutor recommendations for this and that. I feel so sorry for their DCs but also for the bright kids that don’t need tutors from year 7 who missed out on a place purely because of dropping a few marks in their 11+

I have been to a few open days, and the girls at a super-selective grammar really stood out to me. They just felt genuinely sharp—every girl I spoke to was so confident and gave really logical answers. On the other hand, girls at two selective private schools gave pretty messy answers and didn't seem nearly as confident. I guess most girls at a top grammar genuinely deserve their places, and those who just tutored their way in are only a minority.

My previous post also referred to a super selective school 😬

Well if that's not a racist comment ! For what it's worth I lived in a grammar school area and taught in one as well as the local comps. There was a large Asian community. Many of the grammar school kids were no cleverer or even weaker than the good kids at the comp which has always led me to conclude that a good kid will do well anywhere. I have also heard parents and pupils at the grammar express the distain you have shown when discussing other pupils choices. Some parents had little respect for teachers for example as we were not "academic enough" and pupils would parrot this. In the end I think you will find that a deep dive into the stats tells a different story about achievement in grammar schools. How many pupils took a "gap year" as in didn't get the grades and are reapplying? How many pupils leave after year 11 so their places are filled with able children from the comps? (As they failed to get the grades for year 12.) The sats scores when we did them in year 9 as well as the cat scores also indicated that the intake was far more diverse than you could imagine but what the pupils at the grammar did have was intensive coaching in an entrance test that had little value elsewhere and that intensive coaching caused incredible pressure in young children as well as them losing hundreds of hours of their childhood. This is why many parents refuse to subject their children to tuition. It is not laziness as you put it. It is caring about the child as a whole person.

Chinese and Jewish people aren't routinely accused by Reform or Restore of being Deliveroo drivers or benefit scroungers or ' coming over on a boat'.

Visas were not given to Asian violinists or artists in the 60s. They were given to doctors and engineers. Bit unfair now to complain that all the doctors who were brought in to build the NHS should have been active in the arts instead!

This entire thread smacks of jealousy really that Asian kids are more clever and work harder.